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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - It Continues... Take Two "skeptical" about Wii U

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I'm expecting the Wii U to have a better third party support that the Wii for the following reasons:

1 - It has a modern GPU supporting shaders (unlike the Wii) which makes PC games easy to port
2 - Its main controller includes basically the sames features of the HD twins (again unlike the Wii)
3 - Day after day hardcore games are becoming more and more expensive, however while its expensive to develop a new game its relatively cheap to port the game to new platform (as long as the platform has a PC-like architecture).

But I don't expect it to be at the same level of the NextBox and the PS4 at least when it comes to western publishes... Now I'm wandering if the Wii U will receive more hardcore titles that the GameCube.



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SaviorX said:
fauzman said:
SaviorX said:
fauzman said:
I think clearly most of the major devs are adopting a "wait and see" approach.

Yet despite this theory, devs will still support the Playstation Vita in spite of poor hardware (and software) sales.


You are correct but it depends on the perception at the launch. People thought that the PSP would do very well, in fact beat the DS, and thats why there was a lot of support for it (initially at least). Add to that, at the time Sony were at the top of their game - the ps2 was selling tonnes and they were bringing a more advanced handheld to the market. People DONT think (at least at the moment) that the Wii U will do well and this lack of confidence means lack of support. Add to that the performance of the last "hardcore" nintendo console (which didnt sell huge) and the wii (which sold lots but didnt see a lot of 3rd party software sales) and its not hard to see why some developers might have doubts.

The best way to get the big multi-plats right now for nintendo would be to spend some cash and get ports of upcoming games to come out at the same time on the Wii U AND do exclusive DLCs (like MS).  

It would probably serve me better if I respond to you in parts:

The Wii was the 'market' leader for the generation with the most consoles sold and was Nintendo's highest-selling console that they ever made. There was skepticism for the Wii's launch as well, with some analysts predicting it would peter out below 40m consoles sold. Perception for the Wii U is no different, if not worse, despite the fact that is a successor to a market leader. Rereading your post, the first 3 or so lines could just well apply to Nintendo now.

You are right here with your points. My point is that now Nintendo are going for a different demographic than which won them this current gen (which is kind of why I mentioned the GC). And that means catering to the current gen trends i.e. FPSes, and maybe Action adventure and RPGs (to a lesser extent). And these are games that generally havent come to the Wii (and may not come to the Wii U - tho things change and this may happen).

The trends of 1995 should not take precedence in this case over which software should be created for the new console. The biggest issue I'm having right now is that you think it did not see a lot of 3rd party sales. The Wii had great-selling 3rd party sales, but not in genres like shooters/action adventures/FPS...but that is because none were made outside of Call of Duty and the ambitious 'The Conduit'. If I have said it once on this website, I have said it a thousand times; you cannot sell videogames that do not exist.

When I was talking about 3rd party support, I was talking about the "hardcore" games such FPSes, AA and rpgs (as I have mentioned above). Yes, some 3rd party games have been very successful on the Wii but the majority of them have been casual - dance, party, minigames titles that really a "hardcore"gamer wouldnt care about. As for the hardcore titles you mentioned below, RE5 didnt come to the Wii  perhaps because of lower sales or hassle to make a lower spec version for the wii (which is what I think they had to do for RE4). As for COD, the latest (MW3) has only sold 450k so far, less than half of PC sales (let alone ps3/xbox) inspite of having an install base larger than either ps3 or xbox. This does not really encourage developers to bring hardcore games to the console - no Skyrim, GTA4, no Batman:AA/AC (tho I know AC is coming to Wii U). For 3rd party developers to support it fully, they will probably want to see evidence that hardcore gamers will be buying the console. Yes there will likely be large initial sales from nintendo fans but nintendo have to do more to bring more players to the consoles. I think a large price cut may very well the way to go, looking at the 3DS.


I just do not know what there is to doubt when it comes to Wii U...

Ubisoft hit the gold mine with Just Dance as a series on Wii, which I believe has sold like 7+9+9= 25 million copies. Rabbids were consistent too, so at least Ubi of all people has their act together....

Sega had their biggest selling game ever with Sonic at the Olympic Games? All the other Sonic titles either  surpassed 1m or got really close.

Square Enix made nothing of note outside of Dragon Quest. A Kingdom Hearts 1+2 & Chain of Memories Collection would have been wise...

Capcom...they went very quirky due to hardware 'limitations'. Their efforts were the true definition of hit or miss. However, 'core' games of 'quality' like RE4 & MH3 hit 2m+. Their on-rails test games also averaged 1m.

Activision had COD consistently hit 1m, and that was with wack online and poor graphics...with Wii Ultra being of AT LEAST equal parity, there is absolutely no conscionable excuse why a Call of Duty game should not be on there. Therefore, if the largest third party series of the entire generation can still find te time to be created on the Wii U, all the other companies bleeding red ink have no excuse.

Ask THQ. Look at what their idiocy got them:

"THQ claims that they have not had a fiscal year where they finished in the black in "the last five fiscal years" and that they have had to restructure their operations to meet those losses. They are also in danger of losing their listing on the Nasdaq because their stock has placed below the required $1 per share minimum for more than 30 days in a fiscal year and could be removed if they can't keep the stock price above $1 for more than 10 consecutive business days by July 23. The icing on this tragic cake is its cash flow problem. Not only do they have a problem finding additional capital to fund their operations, but they also "may not be able to refinance or generate sufficient cash to service and/pay our convertible senior notes."





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Mazty said:

So instead of pretending the Wii and Xbox had the same market, realise they didn't.

You lost me. I have tons of friends who have both a Wii and an XBox. Friends who play both Mario Kart and Skyrim, Call of Duty and Kinect Star Wars. Zelda and Wii Play. Smash Bros and Wii Sports Resort. Kirby's Epic Yarn and Mass Effect.

Sometimes it's convenient to simplify the market into distinct groups. Sometimes it's just easier to say, "This game is designed to appeal more to casual gamers," than to specify exactly what that means. But it's a shortcut. Male and female, Australian and French, under 13 and over 50 -- those are demographics. There is no simple division between "core" and "casual" gamers, and the existence of such demographics is an illusion. A single person cannot be both 15 and 34, and a single person (excepting rarities) cannot be both male and female. But it is extremely common for people to play a wide variety of games, including those labeled both "core" and "casual."

Audiophiles have nothing to do with what we're talking about. They need not be elitist, but I'm calling YOU an elitist because you clearly believe that your tastes are somehow more valuable than those of other consumers. ("Games and consoles shouldn't be focused on [casual gamers].") It's like you don't want the industry to make free money. You would dismiss as gimmicks some of the best-selling video games of all time. What do you care if tens of millions of people love playing Wii Sports Resort? By dismissing their tastes, you're effectively telling them that they're wrong for enjoying a certain product, and you're telling Nintendo that they were wrong for creating that product. Meanwhile, Nintendo looks at their financial reports, and sees that their "casual"-oriented games are among their best-selling.

Again, the so-called "casual" market has actually proven to be more sustainable than the "core" market you describe. That's because "casual" games, by their nature, have wider appeal than "core" games, which are often considered niche. Compare the appeal of Super Mario Bros or Call of Duty to that of Darksiders or Infamous. Of course the "casual" games sell better -- their target demographic is enormous. And they will always sell better, because developers aren't going to change their "core" games to appeal to that wider audience, and that's exactly how it should be. Some games will be blockbusters, some games won't. It works pretty similarly in the film industry.

The "casual" market has been around much longer than you think it has. The NES managed to succeed in America basically because of that audience -- it was marketed as an entertainment system, not just as a game console. It appealed even to people who weren't terribly interested in video games. This happened again 15 years later when a whole bunch of people bought a console called the PlayStation 2 just because it was the cheapest DVD player on the market, regardless of whether or not they cared about video games. Like it or not, the "casual" market has been saving this industry's ass on a regular basis for the past 26 years.

"I don't want a single publisher thinking that I'll pay twice for the same game." -- that's a shame, because many publishers already KNOW they can squeeze significantly more money out of their consumers through DLC. You may not be buying a single game twice, but you're paying double for one game, and isn't that just as bad?



Mr Khan said:
Mazty said:
Deoz said:
Mazty said:

Are audiophiles "music elitists"? No. Some people just have a higher standard then others and if you are going to be in denial of this seperation of the market then you are just as blind as some of the companies. Do you think the same people who play CS:S play farmville? How about those that play Call of Duty? Do you think they will also reguarly play Mario Kart? There is a content seperation between casual and core games. Even Nintendo admit the existance of core games:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

So instead of pretending the Wii and Xbox had the same market, realise they didn't. 
Go tell Zynga that the casual market is sustainable. How they doing? 

Well i know some people that do, the thing with casual games is that they can be played by almost anyone and enjoyable by anyone. Even people with "high standards" can see the enjoyment of things like CoD or MK7. becasue they are quality casual games.

The casual market can be sustantaible but it needs works and balace.

MK7, blueshell and catch up. Quality you say? Hah. Try again. 

You're nitpicking.


I'm proving a point. Casual games are nto quality games, they are merely accessible, family friendly games. Compare MK7 to Forza.



Deoz said:
Mazty said:

MK7, blueshell and catch up. Quality you say? Hah. Try again. 

good tracks, same solid gameplay with a new touch, nice online and pretty fun. Yeah , i still think is a quality game


You ignored what I just showed to be fundamentally broken gameplay. Hang at the back until you get a bluesehll, then use catch up to get second on the last lap followed by a blueshell. The game is broken and makes for a last lap metagame.



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the_dengle said:
Mazty said:

So instead of pretending the Wii and Xbox had the same market, realise they didn't.

You lost me. I have tons of friends who have both a Wii and an XBox. Friends who play both Mario Kart and Skyrim, Call of Duty and Kinect Star Wars. Zelda and Wii Play. Smash Bros and Wii Sports Resort. Kirby's Epic Yarn and Mass Effect.

Sometimes it's convenient to simplify the market into distinct groups. Sometimes it's just easier to say, "This game is designed to appeal more to casual gamers," than to specify exactly what that means. But it's a shortcut. Male and female, Australian and French, under 13 and over 50 -- those are demographics. There is no simple division between "core" and "casual" gamers, and the existence of such demographics is an illusion. A single person cannot be both 15 and 34, and a single person (excepting rarities) cannot be both male and female. But it is extremely common for people to play a wide variety of games, including those labeled both "core" and "casual."

Audiophiles have nothing to do with what we're talking about. They need not be elitist, but I'm calling YOU an elitist because you clearly believe that your tastes are somehow more valuable than those of other consumers. ("Games and consoles shouldn't be focused on [casual gamers].") It's like you don't want the industry to make free money. You would dismiss as gimmicks some of the best-selling video games of all time. What do you care if tens of millions of people love playing Wii Sports Resort? By dismissing their tastes, you're effectively telling them that they're wrong for enjoying a certain product, and you're telling Nintendo that they were wrong for creating that product. Meanwhile, Nintendo looks at their financial reports, and sees that their "casual"-oriented games are among their best-selling.

Again, the so-called "casual" market has actually proven to be more sustainable than the "core" market you describe. That's because "casual" games, by their nature, have wider appeal than "core" games, which are often considered niche. Compare the appeal of Super Mario Bros or Call of Duty to that of Darksiders or Infamous. Of course the "casual" games sell better -- their target demographic is enormous. And they will always sell better, because developers aren't going to change their "core" games to appeal to that wider audience, and that's exactly how it should be. Some games will be blockbusters, some games won't. It works pretty similarly in the film industry.

The "casual" market has been around much longer than you think it has. The NES managed to succeed in America basically because of that audience -- it was marketed as an entertainment system, not just as a game console. It appealed even to people who weren't terribly interested in video games. This happened again 15 years later when a whole bunch of people bought a console called the PlayStation 2 just because it was the cheapest DVD player on the market, regardless of whether or not they cared about video games. Like it or not, the "casual" market has been saving this industry's ass on a regular basis for the past 26 years.

"I don't want a single publisher thinking that I'll pay twice for the same game." -- that's a shame, because many publishers already KNOW they can squeeze significantly more money out of their consumers through DLC. You may not be buying a single game twice, but you're paying double for one game, and isn't that just as bad?

Such an illuision that nintendo actually refers to core games?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reggie-nintendo-not-good-at-core-games

Stop kidding yourself. Casual gamers don't have the nature of repeat purchase because they don't care about quality or technical innovations, they care about the most shallow of things so to get them to upgrade is nearly impossible unless you can sell your item on the premis that it is cool. 
I don't buy DLC either becauser its a rip-off so try again.



Mazty said:

Stop kidding yourself. Casual gamers don't have the nature of repeat purchase because they don't care about quality or technical innovations, they care about the most shallow of things so to get them to upgrade is nearly impossible unless you can sell your item on the premis that it is cool.

Seriously, are you trolling? I have to know whether anyone can actually be this closed-minded about other people's tastes. You are really being the most stereotypical "core" gamer you could possibly be, by grouping the majority of video game consumers into a single entity and making grand, downright offensive generalizations about their tastes ("Casual gamers don't care about quality"). You're also flat-out ignoring all evidence to the contrary -- evidence I have provided.

I also don't believe you've ever played a Mario Kart game before, or you would know that purposely staying in last place until the final lap is NOT an effective strategy. Staying in second, close behind the player in first, might be an effective strategy -- but at that point, there isn't really any difference between a blue shell and a red shell -- or, for that matter, drafting.

You're either trolling or you're dead set in your bias. Either way there's no point continuing this discussion.



the_dengle said:
Mazty said:

Stop kidding yourself. Casual gamers don't have the nature of repeat purchase because they don't care about quality or technical innovations, they care about the most shallow of things so to get them to upgrade is nearly impossible unless you can sell your item on the premis that it is cool.

Seriously, are you trolling? I have to know whether anyone can actually be this closed-minded about other people's tastes. You are really being the most stereotypical "core" gamer you could possibly be, by grouping the majority of video game consumers into a single entity and making grand, downright offensive generalizations about their tastes ("Casual gamers don't care about quality"). You're also flat-out ignoring all evidence to the contrary -- evidence I have provided.

I also don't believe you've ever played a Mario Kart game before, or you would know that purposely staying in last place until the final lap is NOT an effective strategy. Staying in second, close behind the player in first, might be an effective strategy -- but at that point, there isn't really any difference between a blue shell and a red shell -- or, for that matter, drafting.

You're either trolling or you're dead set in your bias. Either way there's no point continuing this discussion.


How else can you explain the demise of Zynga or the boom & bust sales of Kinect?
All the evidence points towards a very volitile market that clearly doesn't care about graphics etc. What evidence have you provided??

I've played MK since the SNES, so try again. It is a tactic that works brilliantly in in MK7 due to the amount of catch up boosts given to the last player. Combine that with the strong catch up & you have a nice metagame. 

I'm trolling how? All the evidence shows casual gamers are very temperamental. Show me some evidence that suggests otherwise. 



Mazty said:


How else can you explain the demise of Zynga or the boom & bust sales of Kinect?
All the evidence points towards a very volitile market that clearly doesn't care about graphics etc. What evidence have you provided??

IAll the evidence shows casual gamers are very temperamental. Show me some evidence that suggests otherwise. 

All I have shown you is evidence to the contrary, but you won't see it. Zynga is going under because it's going under. It happens to all sorts of companies all the time. It's currently in the process of happening to Sega, Konami, and THQ. It certainly doesn't indicate a general apathy towards games from your so-called "casual" market.

We've been over this. PS2 sold so well because it played DVDs. It had "casual" support. DS sold so well thanks to Nintendogs, Brain Age, New Super, etc. It had "casual" support. I don't think I have to explain the Wii?

The "casual" games you detest so much were the best-selling games of this generation. If you removed them from the equation, this gen would have been a bust. Every gen would have been a bust -- as I said, it's thanks to people casually interested in games that the NES took off like it did.

But you want more evidence? Alright. Casual gamers don't care to upgrade, eh? Over 90% of the gamers who bought Wii Fit upgraded to Wii Fit Plus two years later. Almost 30 million people have bought into Wii Sports Resort despite already owning the original Wii Sports. Just Dance 2 for Wii saw a 36% growth in sales from the first game in the franchise, released one year earlier. Just Dance 3 is well on its way to passing the sales of its predecessor -- and by the way, so far in 2012, Just Dance 3 on Wii is the best-selling game on a single platform released the previous year. How bout those legs?

Ooh, let's look at one of your favorite examples of a casual game -- Mario Kart 7. Over 5.5 million have already upgraded to a 3DS and bought this game, and you can bet that number will explode again this holiday season.

And one of my favorite "casual" games, Journey, is the best-selling PSN game of all time according to Sony.

You also now say "casual" gamers "don't care about graphics." Well that's good, somebody has to not care about graphics. But shame on them for having fun playing games they like instead of paying twice as much money to play games they don't enjoy that look ten times better.

Honestly, you just sound like you're still bitter about the success of the Wii. Hope that works out for you.



Gaming has become very "snobby" these days, i mean kids and casuals have as much right to play and have games developed for them as the so-called hardcore mob. Im very grateful for the Wii as its really ruffled a few feathers and added a whole different variety to the gaming industry. I thought the Playstation brand was getting very stale, and gaming was starting to become very predictable. I think the hardcore gamers are pissed because they dont like change and dont like gaming becoming more mainstream.