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Forums - General Discussion - It snowed in Baghdad, Iraq for first time in almost 100 years.

Damstr8 on 12 January 2008
makingmusic476 said:
As for my thoughts on global warming, I believe it is happening, obviously, since the earth is getting hotter, but I also have my doubts as to whether we as a society are having a considerable effect on the overall temperature. Sure, we have our theories about what CO2 levels can do to the atmosphere, and this and that, but the fact is is that we have no conclusive proof as to what the end results of our actions are, and whether or not the consequences of our industrial endeavors are affecting the climate in any substantial way over and above what the planet is doing itself.

Like the graph above shows, the Earth was cooling down between 1940 and 1970 or so, when during that time we were in a period of serious industrial growth, manufacturing war goods for the conflicts in Europe, Korea, and Vietnam, as well as the cold war. We also underwent multiple nuclear tests during that time. It was at the end of this phase that the environmentalist craze began taking over, and we started concentrating on cutting down industrial emissions and pollutants, yet during this period the temperature of the earth began to increase at a faster rate than ever before.

Is global warming happening? Hell yes. Are we, the human race, a primary cause of this? Possibly, but from what I've seen so far, I doubt it.
Well,if its not human kind's fault....Then its a natural thing,which means we cant stop it...which means everyone should just lay back and live their life....and wait until we burn to death....what else can we do?

 



 

 

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IllegalPaladin on 12 January 2008

...... so uh....

Snow in Iraq, that's interesting.



Grey Acumen on 12 January 2008

Is there global warming? Possibly

Are humans the cause? Doubtfully

Does the EPA or any other organization have a shit of an idea of how to fix it, or even care? No

Whether or not global warming exists, whether or not YOU care about global warming and the environment, it doesn't matter to me. But no current major organization with any recognition actually has the health of the earth at the base of their reasoning.
Global warming is a method of controlling people, because you can claim that ANYTHING is a cause of global warming and you don't need to show proof. After all, all the problems are actually far off into the future, if it snows in Bagdad for the first time in 100 years, that also can be attributed to global warming causing massive fluctuations in standard weather cycles, never mind that it did apparently happen 100 years ago.
On top of that, you can make any claim you want as to how to fix things. Demand certain chemicals be taken out of products, other chemicals be put in. Emissions of certain types must be within a certain limit, which gets changed every other year. Can anyone point to anything and say "Hey, this isn't working"? No, because none of the results will show up until way off in the far distant future. If there isn't any human caused global warming, and people still listen to these global warming issues, then in the far off distant future, they'll just say "see? it's only thanks to us that it worked, now you better keep listening or else the world will die in another 100 years"
It's the same type of fear mongering people accuse Bush over in the war, you know, the one against the terrorists that have pretty much stated they will do everything they can to kill us, and have already demonstrated that they will, but they go gaga over "protecting the earth" cause it's "in danger" from the evil "pollutionists"
Hell, at least Bush's "fearmongering" has a face to it.

So yeah, I may not be able to disprove global warming, but I CAN prove why you shouldn't listen the people claiming that man is the cause of it.

Final-Fan said:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

"These assessments have largely followed or endorsed the IPCC position that "An increasing body of observations gives a collective picture of a warming world and other changes in the climate system... There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities" "

15 out of 17 on that list agree and the other two (including "American Association of Petroleum Geologists") don't disagree.

"...no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate."

I'm not going to bother putting pages and pages of data up here but I am going to say that when NO national or international scientific organization is known to disagree with scientific opinion on a "hot-button" issue, it's damn well close enough to fact for me to take their word on it. Certainly it's enough for me to take their word on it over the media or politicians or whatnot.
Also, OMG, did you just use WIKIPEDIA as a source for a POLITICAL ISSUE?!

 

 



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insomniac17 on 12 January 2008
OnlyIsrael said:
Flow said:
OnlyIsrael said:
kazadoom said:
What is funny is that you say Global warming is certain when there is absolutely no scientific proof of it whatsoever. I challenge anyone on here to give one substantial proof that the Earth is getting warmer, and further that humans are the cause of it. You all make me laugh. Global Warming, what a joke! You all probably believe in evolution as well. Better yet, get me a single fact to back that up while you are at it.

Here is a perfect example of what I was pointing out earlier.


Yet, you can't provide what he asked, can you?

If you can, there was a site that was giving $100,000 to any guy who could, i'll try to find the link...


Lets see, I could waste my free time tonight looking up primary sources in scholarly journals (which I have very little of because I'm pursing an advanced degree in the biological sciences and I basically live at school) to prove to someone that won't believe what has already been proven by other people. Or, I could enjoy myself by participating in a Video Game website.

Or, if it matters so much to him/you you could go get an education at a credible university in the hard sciences and not waste mine or anyone else’s time with links to internet sites that prove nothing other than someone has an opinion and they feel that having it makes their arguments valid.

I actively pursued and am pursuing an education in the sciences; please don't assume that we're somehow discussing this issue on a level playing field and that I in any way feel that you have presented any semblance of a valid argument. The burden of proof is in the hands of those opposing established scientific understanding (they've already had to prove their data), not the other way around.


 You avoided that bit there. You say that you can, but you don't. That leads me to believe that you are lying about it and just want people to think you have proof. I'll believe it when I see this "proof" of yours.

@everyone else who believes Global Warming

 I'm not saying that the temperature is not rising, or that we aren't helping it along, I'm just saying that unless we get more data, we really can't come to a conlusion as to how much we are affecting it. As I have previously stated, the Earth has gone through many hot periods and many cold periods. We don't have almost any data from these times to show what the high and low temperatures. So, for all we know, this could be a relatively mild increase slightly aided by us.

And, as I believe everyone else has said on here before, I do think that we should stop pollution before this does become a real issue and we really have something to worry about. but I want proof that we are affecting the temperature significantly compared to the other times this has happened in the past. If anyone can provide proof enough of it, then I will believe that Global Warming is a serious threat.



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darendt on 12 January 2008
Flow said:

Thread derailed again

 

EDIT - @OnlyIsrael - I don't deny human influence on global warming, but we are not the cause on global warming as people say. If we stop polluting (again in the meaning of reducing emissions while keeping our life standards, not stop producing anything at all) the climate change won't stop, and that's what the media make it look like. And thanks for the compliment =D.


 It wont stop, but it would slow down considerably. There are natural sources that cause the "warming" issue as well. We are just adding a very large amount to this already natural occurance.



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famousringo on 12 January 2008
kazadoom said:
so how warm was the Earth 1000 years ago? Oh we do not know because we do not have any measurements from that time. Just because the temp is rising now does not mean anything as for all we know the temp 1000 years ago could have been hotter than it is today. A small collection of data of 100 years proves nothing, neither can it. The rising and falling of temps on Earth is natural and has nothing to do with anything other than the Earth, and there is no one or no thing that can prove otherwise. Still waiting for some scientific fact here, keep trying because there are none, only theories and speculation

 I'm sure you'll find some way to discount it, but here's your answer:

http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/01/one-hundred-years-is-not-enough.html

 



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famousringo on 12 January 2008

Here's an answer for the "It's just natural cycles" argument:

http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/01/climate-is-always-changing.html

"The other important difference between the glacial-interglacial cycles and today is the rapidity of the current change. The rate of warming is on the order of 10 times faster today than seen in the ice cores.

Such rapid warming on a global scale is very rare in the geological record, and while it may not be unprecedented, there is very strong evidence that whenever such a change has happened, whatever the cause, it was a catastrophic event for the biosphere."



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famousringo on 12 January 2008
Grey Acumen said:

Is there global warming? Possibly

Are humans the cause? Doubtfully

*snipped for space*

So yeah, I may not be able to disprove global warming, but I CAN prove why you shouldn't listen the people claiming that man is the cause of it.

Final-Fan said:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

"These assessments have largely followed or endorsed the IPCC position that "An increasing body of observations gives a collective picture of a warming world and other changes in the climate system... There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities" "

15 out of 17 on that list agree and the other two (including "American Association of Petroleum Geologists") don't disagree.

"...no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate."

I'm not going to bother putting pages and pages of data up here but I am going to say that when NO national or international scientific organization is known to disagree with scientific opinion on a "hot-button" issue, it's damn well close enough to fact for me to take their word on it. Certainly it's enough for me to take their word on it over the media or politicians or whatnot.
Also, OMG, did you just use WIKIPEDIA as a source for a POLITICAL ISSUE?!

 

 


Eh? Climate change is a political issue?

So if we hold a vote and 51% of people think it's real, it will become real? What kind of reality-distortion field is that?

The existance, causes and effects of climate change itself are scientific issues, what we ought to do about it is a political issue. The fact that so many people think it's just another political issue, like abortion or trade agreements, is a huge victory for those who want to sow confusion on this issue.



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darconi on 12 January 2008
stof said:
@ shams. Its the Internet. Full of Global warming and Lunar landing doubters and Ron Paul supporters.

As for everyone in this thread arguing on the side of sanity. Give it up. If someone still doesn't believe in human caused climate change, they're not going to no matter how it's explained. They've given up on reason far too long ago.

 Completely agree with you stof.  So many people don't even understand what the questions they need to ask are regarding scientific topics and yet think they're qualified to say that it is or isn't happening.  

Basically, for the people that deny its happening, no matter how much evidence or how much you try to educate them, they still won't be swayed.  Considering the fact that there's still people out there who deny the holocaust happened even with all the evidence for it, its just a waste of time.  

And for everyone, if you look it up, global warming actually calls for huge shifts in general climate/weather so this in no way contradict it. 

 



ArtofAngels on 12 January 2008

I've never seen snow in my life.