Runa then says:

What is health with extremism? What is life without reason? You want to live eternally, but what if all you have is a sick mind? _ Answer that and I'll say you win.

Religion claims to have brought the light of justice. What has truth brought to our society? Grief mostly! Men waging war against each other as they fail to understand their respective worth . You don't like this? Ask most of the succeeding civilizations that preceeded us what they think about it.

Religion brought the loss of choice for life in the womb. What has that led to? Prudish lifestyles. Frustration. Rape! Had my father been religious he would've abused my siblings and I would not be the man I am today. You would be cheering for that, but I'll tell you the truth, if that is true then you are proof against the idea you're pushing.

In the mean time, religious people are not only tolerated (which they should be), but religion is encouraged. What does that lead to? Mostly the weakening of reason within the sacred social structure: humanity. You don't like me saying this? That's because it's the truth. And you just can't handle the truth, as most cowards in our society can't either. And that's proof that religion is ultimately leading our society to its greatest point of weakness: IGNORANCE.

theprof00 already called it, I lost. Of course I lost, he's an agnostic atheist as well.

What is the point of this thread? It's to prove that though religion once served a purpose, it no longer does. If that's true, tell me really what has secularism given to society that religion could not have provided?

What is health without purpose? What is life without love? You want to live eternally, but what if all you have is an empty soul? _ Answer that and I'll say you win.

Secularism claims to have brought the emancipation of women. What has feminism brought to our society? Grief mostly! Men can't handle their partners, and many marriages crumble because women don't understand their place. You don't like this? Ask most of the succeeding civilizations that preceeded us what they think about it.

Secularism brought the freedom of choice for life in the womb. What has that led to? Promiscuity. Abortion. Had my father been aborted as he would've been thanks to today's progress, I would not have been alive today. You would be cheering for that, but I'll tell you the truth, if that is true then you are proof against the idea you're pushing.

In the mean time, homosexuals are not only tolerated (which they should be), but homosexuality is encouraged. What does that lead to? Mostly the tearing of a sacred social structure: family. You don't like me saying this? That's because it's the truth. And you just can't handle the truth, as most cowards in our society can't either. And that's proof that secularism is ultimately leading our society to its greatest point of weakness: DECEIT.

Enjoy it guys while it lasts. As for me, I'll stick to the values I cherish and work my way towards getting better at them. I know who gave them to me, I believe he is real, and the proof that he is lies in the fact that when I deny his existence, those very values disappear before my very eyes.

... Now... having said all that... I do very well know that there are wonderful people out there with values I highly respect who do not have a faith of their own. But know this, they are the exception, not the rule. On a larger scale, a social character of disbelief is one that leads to what we're seeing increase: hate, family breakup, broken relationships, pride, deceit. And it's no wonder, as only the simple fail to realize the grand scheme of things: ... divide and conquer.

The best trick the devil ever played is to make you believe he isn't real. Remember that.

There is no end to this damned debate. If all of nature can be explained without the agency of God, and especially if the creation of man is totally unrelated to the deity's cause, then we have just lost the greatest link to the divine that we had: Nature. To follow that route in my view is already a position of deceit. It's like someone worked on a masterpiece for years, and then people denying his work. Worse, they deny his ownership of said masterpiece. This, if true, is the sign of a stolen possession, and a broken relationship (with the creator).

Fair, I can't prove to you any of this is true either, but to me it goes beyond proof. When I see people denying the existence of God, what I generally witness is a source of pride, selfishness and arrogance. With that, I also witness the breakdown of family, very severely strained human bonds and other tragedies of human relationship building. I see abominations such as the holocost and the camps of Red Russia. You can argue that there is a grain of religion in the holocost, but it is vestigial, and for Russia's past in communism religion is inexistent.

Ambitions of grandure (twilight of the idols) lead to men making all the rules, and it becomes the law of the strongest that prevails. I see oppression, hate, and lies.

That's my POV, and I know you dislike it.

There is no end to this damned debate. If all of nature can be explained without the agency of God, and especially if the creation of man is totally unrelated to the deity's cause, then we have just lost the greatest link to the divine that we had: Nature. To follow that route in my view is already a position of deceit. It's like someone worked on a masterpiece for years, and then people denying his work. Worse, they deny his ownership of said masterpiece. This, if true, is the sign of a stolen possession, and a broken relationship (with the creator).

Fair, I can't prove to you any of this is true either, but to me it goes beyond proof. When I see people denying the existence of God, what I generally witness is a source of pride, selfishness and arrogance. With that, I also witness the breakdown of family, very severely strained human bonds and other tragedies of human relationship building. I see abominations such as the holocost and the camps of Red Russia. You can argue that there is a grain of religion in the holocost, but it is vestigial, and for Russia's past in communism religion is inexistent.

Ambitions of grandure (twilight of the idols) lead to men making all the rules, and it becomes the law of the strongest that prevails. I see oppression, hate, and lies.

That's my POV, and I know you dislike it.

Yeah, I've witnessed that too. But the problem lies elsewhere than where you first thought. The problem with religious cults today is that they have a tendency to stay within their 4 walls. One reason of this is because religion is oppressed and has its expression suffocated. As such, the religious mentality stagnates into a cycle of obsession, where there is no outlet valve. Thoughts become circular, there is no challenging one's own beliefs.

In my quest to flee from the traps of religion, I've embraced many values of secularism so as to find solace from that phenomenon of stagnation. But that didn't mean I was to throw the baby with the bathwater.

As for your other points, I like what you said. And that was one of the things I was trying to show too. That one person can bash something, and another can bash the challenging view. Well, what is the truth? It must lie somewhere in the middle. That's why there is so much back and forth, because we keep thinking it's one or the other...

As a person who left the confines of the church, I can tell you I've learnt alot from opening myself up to secularism. But those who are confined in the 4 walls of secularism may also fall in the same trap as does the church. Circular thinking, not challenging one's own opinions, etc. etc.

Secularism has given people freedom.

Secularism doesn't promote homosexuality. It promotes being honest with yourself. It lets you know that there is nothing wrong with you despite all the religious people judging you (when they shouldn't be in the first place).

Secularism brought women the freedom to rise above the shackles of abusive relationships. Women have power now. There are plenty of healthy relationships and secularism gives women the ability to choose.

Secularism, more than anything else, REALLY gives people the freedom to choose. Religion, and Christianity more importantly, never really gave people the freedom of choice. Without choice, how good can you really be? What metric can you base the value of moral ethic on, when the subject knows they are being judged.

An athiest man of equal moral ethic to a religious man vastly outweighs the latter in worth. An athiest man knows that there is no reward in his good, and yet sacrifices what he has for others.

If you don't believe that religion is suffocated, then I don't know what to say. Sex and violence is prevalent in movies. Esoterism and magic are all there. But the mention of the word God raises hairs, it must be presented in the best of fashions. What ever happened to Christmas? Or should I dare say that? Xmas... *choke

I believe in Jesus, I'm a Jesus freak. I believe in the bible, my belief is outdated. I'm called ignorant and irrational. I want to share my faith with my neighbor, call the police for Pete's sake he's harming our children. In the mean time, talk about violence, talk about sex, talk about atheism all you like, it's fair game. BUT DON'T YOU EVER MENTION GOD, it's like a penis (keep it to yourself). Right?

I mean, how do you not see it?

I read it too and I liked it.

Opinions opinions opinions opinions opinions.

What theprof00 said is that he wants a world where people have a choice. How is that not possible in a religious mindset?

If the smart ones took the route of secularism rather than religion, wouldn't you give credit to their intelligence rather than their choice? There are problems in religion, there are problems in secularism. If I were to choose, I chose religious secularism. In other words, you live your faith perfectly, you live your every day life perfectly. You let people live, people let you live.

The problem I see is when either religion or "science" aka evolution is pushed onto people. That is not a choice. Is that what you all want?

What about this. Your son decides he would like to embrace religion. What is your perspective there? Will you try to talk him out of it? If so, how are you any better than parents of a religion who don't allow their grown children to walk away.

Even harder question. What do you do if there is someone teaching your children things that are contrary to what you desire them to learn until they are of age to make their own decisions? Would you allow people of faith to show children or other people alternative ways to their current (possibly atheistic) lifestyle. Why would a person of faith appreciate a non-faither to teach their views to the children? No more double-sided playing! It's both ways or nothing.

Here's what I demand, and I'll follow by tying in with the OP. I demand a world where all views are taught. If we're going to be secular let's do it all the way. All religions taught in school, all theories taught in school. Let the students decide. People are to present their lectures of whatever nature they so please, and everyone has the right to freely attend. Teach Gay Marriage, teach Heterosexual Marriage, teach Faithfulness, teach Adultery, teach child innocence, teach pedophilia, teach child sacrifice (which some cultures do), teach PolyAmory, teach Fanatic Religion, teach everything. Teach madness, and teach lucidity. Encourage madness, and encourage lucidity. Everyone chooses.

If we're not going to draw the line, who will? Where is the line, where is it drawn? Who determines what is the limit. Homosexuality? Incest? Maybe not incest? What about Pedophilia? Necrophilia? No? Zoophilia, maybe that's ok... How about, teaching kids how to eat shit when having sex? How about teaching kids to have sex?

Where do you draw the line? How is the above picture drastically wrong?

It's wrong when you break society down to smaller levels, where what you do has a consequence, and where every person in that society has a greater importance and affection. For example, the family. You wouldn't want people in your family to practice things you consider wrong, but especiallyharmful. Why? Because you care about them, and because it can affect others. The choice argument works in larger societies because the structure is weaker. But live in a world of survival where all you have is your clan and things get a little less free.

The things religion has brought to society can't be replaced. Not by any anti-religion. Honor, truth, virtue, faith, trust, nobility, purity, chastity, dedication, discipline, focus, longsuffering, sacrifice, .... You'll find them in a form or another but each religion brings a flavor of that, and noone can say they would be as easily found without it.

Much of the teachings of light can still be used today. For instance, the teachings of the NT could have allowed a proper form of female emancipation without the need of rebellion. Liken this to Martin Luther versus Malcolm X. Both wanted to achieve the same thing, one through non-violence, the other through violence. In the case of feminism, secularism caused the shift to go from oppression to rebellion, whereas a true form of Christianity for instance would've encouraged a balanced emancipation, where women take their god-given place, but fulfill it through sacrifice. Giving up their rebellion to humble themselves before their husbands, but taking back the rights they were removed, the priviledges to have a voice, to be productive and to be of value to society.