I don`t think that being polite, kind or doing something in a way out of care for others feelings is something that stops anyone from telling what they feel they should say.

About religion being irrational, i just don`t get that comment, i never did.
If i admit that i don`t know everything, how can i assume anything of what i don`t know? For starters, what reason do i have to assume that what i don`t know is the same as what i in fact know?
If there`s something that remains in the dark, talking about what`s in the dark based on what i know, is, to me, nothing more than a guess. Based on what i have i guess what`s there.

Fact is i don`t know. So, isn`t it irrational to exclude possibilities or isn`t it rational to not close the door to all possiblities, given that i don`t know everything about everything?

"In 1973, the Blessed Virgin Mary gave Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa in Akita, Japan three messages through a statute of Mary. Bathed in a brilliant light, the statute became alive and spoke with a voice of indescribable beauty. Her Guardian Angel also appeared and taught her to pray. The wooden statute from which the voice came wept 101 times over a course of several years. It also perspired abundantly and the perspiration sent out a sweet perfume. Its right palm bled from a wound having the form of a cross. Hundreds of people witnessed many of these events. Scientific analysis of blood and tears from the statute provided by Professor Sagisaka of the faculty of Legal Medicine of the University of Akita confirmed that the blood, tears, and perspiration are real human tears, sweat, and blood. They come from three blood groups: O, B, and AB. Sister Agnes also has stigmata on the right palm. A Korean woman with terminal brain cancer received immediate healing while praying before the statute in 1981. The miracle was confirmed by Dr. Tong-Woo-Kim of the St. Paul Hospital in Seoul and Fr. Theisen, President of the Ecclesiastical Tribunal of the Archdiocese of Seoul. The second miracle was the complete cure of total deafness of Sister Agnes." - http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Akita.htm

Religion is why we can't have nice things

Okay, I rant a lot, I get angry a lot (I wish I didn't), but sometimes I run across someone so stupid, ignorant, judgemental, and pathetic that I Get that look like “...what the fuck did you just say? Run it by me again because I'm quite confident nobody who said what I thought you just said was capable of breathing.” I woke up this morning to a rant my father was spewing about muslims that made me cringe at the apparent amount of stupidity.

As you'll remember, I have an issue with people using stereotypes to justify their hate, and am not a fan of people who don't know that, say, Indians are not the same group as Native Americans. Generally speaking, I just don't like that, and my dad is horrible for both (which is a shame because, aside from his blatant racism, he's actually pretty smart.) A while back, my father was complaining about how unfair it was that “White truckers have to adhere to the law, and have limiters on their trucks, but those ragheads can go as fast as they want.” Basically, in his eyes, foreigners (muslims, turks, what-have-you) are doing everything in their power to oppress the white man and inpose their beliefs on us. Hoo boy, you could feel the air seething when he was on a rant about that Ground Zero Mosque thing, and especially when I explained to him that his perception of that issue was off (it was).

But this morning I got another dose of this conspiracy theory. APPARENTLY it's the fault of the Muslims that we can't say Merry Christmas. Apparently it's the Muslims who are pushing political correctness, having the Pledge of allegience and the Lords Prayer taken out of schools. And apparently this is just futher proof that the muslims are trying to oppress us and take over.

There are no words to explain my rage and frustration at this 'revelation'.

This is yet another one of those incidents where the argument is so colossally retarded that I honestly don't know where to start. It's so full of condescension and contraditions that I honestly don't know where to start. I tried discussing this with my aunt (who is usually pretty rational except when it comes to her smoking habit), and she told me I was barking up the wrong tree because she agreed...What the fuck is wrong with my family? What? Muslims are the US's target of choice so it's okay to be racist against them? What the flying cuntfuck?!

1 – Political Correctness has been around since Clinton, so a lot of these accusations about the Muslims forcing political correctness is bogus right from the get-go.

2 – It's not muslims who have a problem with christmas cheers, it's that whole “Separation of Church and State” thing that's been all the rage in the 340 years the US has been around.

3 – again with the whole “not reciting the lords prayer” thing, Seperation of church and state. Keep the religious bullshit to church, keep that shit out of our schools.

4 – Just because they don't force you to say the pledge of allegience (allegedly, I've heard nothing about this supposed development), they're not saying YOU can't say it, they're just not forcing it. Same with the lord's prayer.

5 – Nobody's infringing on your rights. You as an individual are permitted to wish a merry christmas to anyone you want, it's the professional, public stuff that's discouraged since it could be discriminatory. They're not saying you can't do it, but public image has to be kept neutral.

6 – Even if someone did have an issue with saying merry christmas or happy easter, it's a christian thing, not everyone's christian. Get over it. Separation of church and state. Keep religious icons to church, stop getting pissy.

7 – Even assuming Muslims are to blame for this, it's not like the whole fucking religion is ganging up against christians (not like christians don't deserve it).

8 - Christians have done more to push society to do their whims than any other religion in the world. Just because YOU'RE christian doesn't mean that's suddenly okay.

9 – There's no reason to hate on muslims in the firstplace for fuck's sake. The people who attacked the towers and the US is supposedly warring with are the Al quaeda, RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS!

Fuck's sake people, I just can't fathom how much stupid was concentrated into this discussion, and I'm embarassed to be associated with people who are so ignorant and inconsiderate. Haven't we been through enough periods of 'justified racism' to realize that, in a decade, you're gonna come out of this feeling like total asses?

If not, well, then you're a racist pig. Heil Hitler, I guess.

I've spent the vast majority of my life with an open mind.  I've been christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist, pagan, and most recently (and prominently) atheist.  I've been pro life, pro choice, pro circumcision, anti circumcision, pro euthanasia, anti euthanasia, you name it.  I never, EVER get into a heated debate without thoroughly examining both sides of the issue before hand, and sympathizing with all points.  I have a more open mind than anyone I know.  Having a closed mind is when you don't consider the opposition, and neglect it based solely on "It's the opposite" rather than the facts.  

I have such strong beliefs because I HAVE seen both sides, I HAVE considered the pros and cons and have come to the most logical conclusion.  I'm so strongly against certain things because they're irrational.  

all religion loses merit when it involve dictacting day to day life, aside from forbiding infringment on another persons basic rights

ah yes, you should have been clearer, I thought you were telling ME to be more openminded.  

I've taken the time to read the last 6 or 7 pages of this thread. I also read the first 6 or 7 pages (I somehow missed whichever page had the comic. c an it be reposted/ sent to my inbox?). I have to go to bed now but after work tommorow, I'll post something that both Padib and Runa should find very interesting. In the mean time, I'm adding you both as friends. Runa because his views are so opposite to mine but he has practiced much more religions than I. Friendship with him will add a lot of value to my life. Padib because he's a backsliding christian that has a very similar taste in games with me. I see the 3 games that make up my best game series of all time in his sig.

     Allow me to make an assumption before I post. Let me assume that everyone here that doesn't believe that God exists also doesn't believe in the existence of spirits or any of the bolded above. Also allow me to use jargon, which I will briefly explain in brackets. I live in Nigeria, and in my country, atheists are almost non-existent. Of course, there are religious hypocrites, but for lack of a better term, the closest thing we have to atheism is that people believe in the existence of spirits, but not a supreme God. Why? That's because all the western civilisation and technology here hasn't driven away the witches and babalawos (read: wizard/witch doctor. picture those guys in RPGs that give you charms/tell the future)

    First, let me differentiate. A babalawo uses his abilities to help people in exchange for 2 things. First, you pay the guy. Second, you fulfil his deity's conditions in exchange for the spell you're asking for. The conditions are usually ridiculous (drink something no one would ever want to drink, bath with this item, go around place X in public naked, or sacrifice lives - a relative if the spell is really powerful). Desperate people or politicians usually patronize these guys, either to find out why something happened, to curse/kill someone without it being tracable to them, or to gain money or power. This is what the Bible was referring to when it said "The blessings of God maketh rich and addeth no sorrow" as opposed to the likes of babalawos. Witches don't help anybody. They operate in covens and do wicked acts that benefit only themselves.

    These people have always been secretive, so civilisation hasn't driven them out none. Picture it like organised crime. Everybody knows its happening, a cop might even be friends with a few top criminals, but the same ignore-what-you-can attitude that people have to organised crime applies in this case. The thing is that many people patronize these babalawos, hence, they believe in the spiritual world without neccessarily believing in God. Some people even belong to a religion in public (as someone has said on this thread, it has become a social thing of sorts) to cover up the fact that they don't actually believe in God but patronize babalawos. Hell, even 2 members of my extended family are witches. It's not like they walked up to me and said "hey, I'm a witch", but when you notice this kinda thing, you just act like you don't know.

     These are not just bad practices that need to be kicked out, they WILL  convince you of the existence of demons and the spirit world in general. When a babalawo tells something he can't have possibly known about your past/future or casts a spell that OBVIOUSLY worked, your doubt will die. You believe in science because you can SEE it work. You don't need faith for that. I believe in science too (and on a sidenote, the Bible has further proved the existence of Dinosaurs to me, as well as many other scientific facts), as much as I believe in the spirit world. I don't need faith to do that, I see it clearly. So if all this is true, what makes me think there's a supreme God, or that there's a 'right' religion? Because I know him as my friend, not just as a God that someone told me about. I have a personal relationship with him.He's as real to me and the guy standing right next to me.

    I went through this mental exercise before writing this post. How can I prove that a person (human) in front of me exists or doesn't? Well, I've never had to because I can see, touch and speak to him, just like anyone else can. Can I prove God's existence the same way? Yes, because you can also feel Him/speak with him as I do. Then I found the problem with this analogy. You can touch/see the human with your physical eyes and do the same to God with your spiritual eyes, but what if you don't even believe you have a spirit? Ah! So that's where the problem lies. Honestly, I don't know exactly how to go about that becasue I wouldn't know how to prove to someone that he had a hand when his hand has been right there on him all along and he has even USED IT SOMETIMES, MAYBE SUBCONSCIOUSLY (for example, things happen/are confirmed in the spirit before they happen physically. that's why you sometimes have Deja Vu).

     With this obstruction, all I can do is tell the many instances of God speaking to me or people I know and/or the physical-law-defying miracles I've seen/experienced. The best proofs are usually the ones where God said the same thing to different people who don't even know each other about a person/event that will occur or miracles that many people witnessed without a doubt. However, I've discovered that when I post specific examples that can't be explained away, atheists that read it assume I made it up since the only 2 explanations (when it can't be explained away otherwise) are either it's true, or I made it up. I usually wonder what they think my motivation would be for making it up. I would go to a forum and type so much to convince people I don't even know that something I hope is true actually is true? If I was in doubt as to whether or not it was true, I wouldn't be trying to convince others.

    And personally, I think people that worship God while being unsure of his existence (meaning they obviously don't have a relationship with Him) are in a very unenviable position. At least an atheist is sure of what he's saying. I don't know what else I wanted to say that I've left out of this post but i'll post again if I remember any point I wanted to make. Since this is a legthy post, anyone that wants to quote me should delete the parts that his reply doesn't address so we can be more sure of what exactly I said that he's replying to.

   @Runa, I'm sure you will find the truth because you strike me as someone that is more interested in knowing the truth than being right. When you do, please come to these forums and tell us about it. Until then, stand by what is true to you. Your type usually ends up as the most powerful type of evangelist (Paul in the Bible and many people I know in our generation). :D

Trust me, I will not be returning to the realm of the spiritual.  I tried a lot, I did it all, I've seen a lot of weird things that are later proven to be very rational and explainable.  Too often, people "really hearing voices for reals" are just insane and are hallucinating.  

The 'truth' is that there's a lot of deluded people out there.  Trust me, I'd like to be proven wrong, but as a critical thinker it takes a lot more than a series of 'what-if's and peculiar happenstance to convince me of something as fantastic as a voodoo curse or God's eternal voice.  

   Exactly why I think you'll eventually be convinced. So we'll leave it here for now. I'd appreciate it if you post links on my wall to any similar threads you get involved with or PM me if there's something you think might be interesting to discuss between us (religous or scientific, I've been a science freak since I was 5).