For the most part, I like this post alot and want to thumb it up. Thanks. But there are still things I want to reply to, and here they are.

But ok. Look, this isn't an opinion. You are wrong. There isn't an attitude of "rebellion" agaisnt god, no one is rebelling, people are just thinking maybe they don't exist or that it doesn't seem likely. And secular societies don't lead to social structure breaking down, I can show you many examples of the most succesful nations in the world that have a very small amount of religious people. You can't blame or link the crimes of communism with atheism or secularism, you can't. It's not the fault of atheism or secularism, it's the fault of an oppressive government that wants to be seen as god. 

@bolded. What you fail to see does not deny its existence. Maybe you don't live in an attitude of rebellion, but many people do. I know, when you actually get to talk and know people, many will say they feel angry, or desperately empty. No, it's not everybody there are lots of happy people. But as you grow older, especially in adulthood, you'll see that alot of people suffer. They suffer from a need to be loved, yet they lack the will or the ability to find it. Despising those around them, all they find is themselves, which they also despise, and feel hopeless. You don't believe me, but that's because you aren't listening, your ears aren't open, or you're still a bit young. 

@italics. Not all, but some do. Look at the US, look at Canada. Look at the big cities. It's a huge problem. The rate of divorce is staggering, people can barely hold on to their relationships, many single mothers and fatherless children, a lot of issues with ownership of property and fathers stuck with paying child support after living in abusive relationships with women. TV isn't helping, as a hyper-sexualized media is causing girls to entice at an always younger age, and leading now kids to think sexual extremely early in their development. What do you think that leads to down the road? Yes, promiscuity and no long-lasting relationships.

OF COURSE, this is a general witness and does not apply to all secularists (I consider myself to be one more and more as days go by). But it doesn't change the fact that our current secularist society in America has desperate issues that people are not even looking at! It's a serious problem, and the worst is many deny it, what do you do when you're at that point?

If you take God out of the equation, you are left with all previous morals as they were here BEFORE religion and you are left with people having less reason to hate eachother and blow each other up. What else would we lose? People having a sense of community when they go to church/mosque etc. People who are afraid of death being conforted by the idea of an afterlife and more, I know we also lose the good parts about a belief in God, but they are replaceable. 

@bolded. The way I see it, religion was there before anything, since in my POV God created the world, and was in contact with men for a time. Man always knew he existed until they deliberately refused his existence. Our understanding of backstory strongly contrasts, but neither you nor I can prove either is wrong, so let's just leave it open, as theprof00 hinted at (let people choose).

@reasons to hate each other. Reasons to hate each other will always exist. What you seem to ignore is that religion is only another weapon, just one of many. The ironic thing about religion is that it is meant to lead to enlightenment. When it's used for evil, it makes it that much more evil. That's why the Devil (I know you don't believe in him but just let me finish), that's why I believe he loves to corrupt. When something inherrently good is turned to evil, he dances with glee.

@Community + Guilt. I agree, those are common components of religion. Yes, they would be lost in one form, but community remains in another secular form.

People don't get their morals from religion (apart from fundies), they pick and choose what fits with their own moral code, this is a good thing, otherwise many christians would support slavery and kill their neighbor if he works on a sunday. If we didn't take the good from the bible and reject the bad, christian nations would look a lot like the middle east. And if we didn't have the bible at all, we would lose a lot of the sense of culture that secular nations have. (I still celebrate easter and christmas, I guess christmas isn't fully christian though).

@Bolded. No, people who adhere to the Torah may, but Christians wouldn't, as they adhere first and foremost to the Gospels and the epistles, which greatly elaborate on those topics, it's up to you to get informed. But to help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Sabbath and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#New_Testament

For the second one, given its controversial nature, read this part especially:

See bolded. The amazing thing is that, while Philemon  wasn't morally held to free Onesimus, he did it anyways, by the Spirit of God, a spirit of love. You don't see it because you haven't read the texts. What I'm saying is that the bible doesn't ask for abolishing slavery, but it is very far from condoning it. It accepts it rather as a matter of social fact, but leaves it up to Christian owners to behave on free will. And as you can see, the spirit of God led Philemon to free his faithful Onesimus. Will you repeat this point again and again cause me to defend? When will you understand?!

I can understand what I view as evil based on my own moral code that comes from mostly my own empathy and understanding of others , not from a religious book and fear of god. So does everyone else. Nobody looks at the crimes of Stalin and Hitler and thinks "the bible/god said this is evil, so it is". They think it is wrong without a thought of god, they know it is evil based on their own moral code. So yes, we can understand what evil is, and I don't think it's spiritual, if you think it is, fine, but please don't state that as fact.

I appreciate this whole post. But @bolded. If you can claim that it isn't spiritual as fact yet you have no proof, allow me to postulate my point as fact without proof. Thank you.

About living a lie, well to me it seems that I'm living with the best knowledge about our world that we have (science), and the best moral code that we have (based on empathy and understanding) and I'm not closed on the matter of god, I don't know why you think that, I think it's possible ofcourse, I highly doubt it's a god of any religion, but creator if it did exist. The existence of evil doesn't perplex me. I think it comes from deep rooted issues within a person, if it doesn't, then it could be that the person hasn't developed empathy, which is the basis of our morality (imo). It can be recognized as a mental illness, It should be treated with pills if it can, and that person should be judged in this life, by us, not by the possibility of a god that will send him to hell. How do we judge him? Based on the empathy we feel for the victim (among other factors ofcourse).

@bold. I understand, but as you said it's an opinion, and aren't they a bitch. To me, I certainly am not convinced and until thoroughly convinced I will not embrace it. 

@bold-underlined. Yes, and that's what I was trying to say. It is the law of the strongest that reigns, not the law of truth. Worse is, it is based on sentiment. What if you feel no empathy, but you should. Who will help you change your mind if all sheep see it the same way? Thank heavens for minority views...

I'm not reading 99% of your stuff not because I don't want to, but because I can't. I often skim through like every other post of yours and even then I'm bombarded with logical fallacies that I can't seem to avoid.  I don't read 99% of your stuff because 1% of your posts are still 100% of my daily dose of frustration. 

You need to understand I don't have a hard time discussing with you because you disagree with me.  I have dozens of friends who disagree with me.  I'm friends with religious people, right wing people, pro life people, and plenty of others who are more than capable of providing an alternate viewpoint without being irrational or using twisted logic.  Some of my best friends are people who disagree and argue with me just for the sake of providing a polar opposite view...and I respect them because they're capable of doing so by using logic.  I heard a better anti-gay-marriage argument from a pro-gay-marriage person than I ever did from a homophobe.  what I'm trying to say is that despite all your attempts to assert yourself as a logical, rational person, I'm saying you're deluded.  Sadly such a phenomenon is not uncommon, I deal with a LOT of people who are incapable of following logic and instead are only interested in pushing their agenda. 

I hope you understand that. 

How can you agree with him, what did he actually offer to the discussion? He constantly bashes my personality, how is that constructive? Barely does he ever have the decency to bring up my points and reason them, he's a bigot, purely.

It had nothing to do with religion, mostly true. But the underlined is so wrong.

I don't like Saddam Hussein...but the situation in Iraq is a whole lot worse ever since the war.

How can you agree with him, what did he actually offer to the discussion? He constantly bashes my personality, how is that constructive? Barely does he ever have the decency to bring up my points and reason them, he's a bigot, purely.

Even more, how can you agree, after I just told him "If you are not reading 99% of what I say, then how can you be in a position to judge? "

Yet in his next reply (to which you said "this", in one form or another) he continues to judge the content of my posts, after affirming that he doesn't read them!!

You are intelligent, why are you giving him credit? You praise reason, stop feeding the troll!

I can see that YOU agree with him (and you would be in a position to do so legitimately) because at least you read a portion of what I say, but don't "this" him you're encouraging junk posting.

Andre, it's not that he's intelligent... It's just that you agree with him. Two people can be intelligent but not on the same POV, it happens alot.

If he were really intelligent, he would have posted some things that contributed to the OP (like we both did), and would have spared us the rest of the blanket statements and personal attacks he generally provides on these threads.

Listen, I'm no saint, but at least I did add to the topic at hand. I promise, he didn't, and to prove it, find me one thing he said related to OP that wasn't a blanked statement (in other words something without added reasoning), or a personal attack. If you do give me a considerable amount, I can't find one, but if you  give me like 2 or 3 posts, I'll be happy and agree, he is probably intelligent. But until then, he remains a bigot.

You might have to explain that one to me. I haven't read anyhting that makes me think that the US went to war for any other reason than to defend itself or its neighbors. The goal was to eliminate a threat that possessed WMDs and was willing to use them. The only other goal was regime change, hence, why I said the other main justification for going to war was the nature of Hussein's regime.

As I said, this is the justification the US gave for going to war. The claims of WMDs turned out to be false, but that doesn't change the fact of why the US went to war. To simplify, the main reasons the US went to war was:

1. Defense

2. Regime Change (Democratization)

Now, whether or not these justifications turned out to be true, worthy of achieving, or successful is a whole different debate, and it doesn't change the initial justification for going to war.

Andre, the difference is, when you replied to what I said, you replied TO what I said, you quoted me and brought counter-arguments. He passes blanket statements and doesn't quote, is sloppy and doesn't read what I write. How can you compare your replies to his (bolded)? Yours are  orders greater than his, theprof does a good job, Rol too. But him? he sucks seriously. nuff said guys, I'm out.

 nuff said guys, I'm out.