padib said:
For the most part, I like this post alot and want to thumb it up. Thanks. But there are still things I want to reply to, and here they are.
But ok. Look, this isn't an opinion. You are wrong. There isn't an attitude of "rebellion" agaisnt god, no one is rebelling, people are just thinking maybe they don't exist or that it doesn't seem likely. And secular societies don't lead to social structure breaking down, I can show you many examples of the most succesful nations in the world that have a very small amount of religious people. You can't blame or link the crimes of communism with atheism or secularism, you can't. It's not the fault of atheism or secularism, it's the fault of an oppressive government that wants to be seen as god.
@bolded. What you fail to see does not deny its existence. Maybe you don't live in an attitude of rebellion, but many people do. I know, when you actually get to talk and know people, many will say they feel angry, or desperately empty. No, it's not everybody there are lots of happy people. But as you grow older, especially in adulthood, you'll see that alot of people suffer. They suffer from a need to be loved, yet they lack the will or the ability to find it. Despising those around them, all they find is themselves, which they also despise, and feel hopeless. You don't believe me, but that's because you aren't listening, your ears aren't open, or you're still a bit young. @italics. Not all, but some do. Look at the US, look at Canada. Look at the big cities. It's a huge problem. The rate of divorce is staggering, people can barely hold on to their relationships, many single mothers and fatherless children, a lot of issues with ownership of property and fathers stuck with paying child support after living in abusive relationships with women. TV isn't helping, as a hyper-sexualized media is causing girls to entice at an always younger age, and leading now kids to think sexual extremely early in their development. What do you think that leads to down the road? Yes, promiscuity and no long-lasting relationships. OF COURSE, this is a general witness and does not apply to all secularists (I consider myself to be one more and more as days go by). But it doesn't change the fact that our current secularist society in America has desperate issues that people are not even looking at! It's a serious problem, and the worst is many deny it, what do you do when you're at that point?
If you take God out of the equation, you are left with all previous morals as they were here BEFORE religion and you are left with people having less reason to hate eachother and blow each other up. What else would we lose? People having a sense of community when they go to church/mosque etc. People who are afraid of death being conforted by the idea of an afterlife and more, I know we also lose the good parts about a belief in God, but they are replaceable.
@bolded. The way I see it, religion was there before anything, since in my POV God created the world, and was in contact with men for a time. Man always knew he existed until they deliberately refused his existence. Our understanding of backstory strongly contrasts, but neither you nor I can prove either is wrong, so let's just leave it open, as theprof00 hinted at (let people choose). @reasons to hate each other. Reasons to hate each other will always exist. What you seem to ignore is that religion is only another weapon, just one of many. The ironic thing about religion is that it is meant to lead to enlightenment. When it's used for evil, it makes it that much more evil. That's why the Devil (I know you don't believe in him but just let me finish), that's why I believe he loves to corrupt. When something inherrently good is turned to evil, he dances with glee. @Community + Guilt. I agree, those are common components of religion. Yes, they would be lost in one form, but community remains in another secular form.
People don't get their morals from religion (apart from fundies), they pick and choose what fits with their own moral code, this is a good thing, otherwise many christians would support slavery and kill their neighbor if he works on a sunday. If we didn't take the good from the bible and reject the bad, christian nations would look a lot like the middle east. And if we didn't have the bible at all, we would lose a lot of the sense of culture that secular nations have. (I still celebrate easter and christmas, I guess christmas isn't fully christian though).
@Bolded. No, people who adhere to the Torah may, but Christians wouldn't, as they adhere first and foremost to the Gospels and the epistles, which greatly elaborate on those topics, it's up to you to get informed. But to help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Sabbath and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#New_Testament For the second one, given its controversial nature, read this part especially:
See bolded. The amazing thing is that, while Philemon wasn't morally held to free Onesimus, he did it anyways, by the Spirit of God, a spirit of love. You don't see it because you haven't read the texts. What I'm saying is that the bible doesn't ask for abolishing slavery, but it is very far from condoning it. It accepts it rather as a matter of social fact, but leaves it up to Christian owners to behave on free will. And as you can see, the spirit of God led Philemon to free his faithful Onesimus. Will you repeat this point again and again cause me to defend? When will you understand?!
I can understand what I view as evil based on my own moral code that comes from mostly my own empathy and understanding of others , not from a religious book and fear of god. So does everyone else. Nobody looks at the crimes of Stalin and Hitler and thinks "the bible/god said this is evil, so it is". They think it is wrong without a thought of god, they know it is evil based on their own moral code. So yes, we can understand what evil is, and I don't think it's spiritual, if you think it is, fine, but please don't state that as fact.
I appreciate this whole post. But @bolded. If you can claim that it isn't spiritual as fact yet you have no proof, allow me to postulate my point as fact without proof. Thank you. About living a lie, well to me it seems that I'm living with the best knowledge about our world that we have (science), and the best moral code that we have (based on empathy and understanding) and I'm not closed on the matter of god, I don't know why you think that, I think it's possible ofcourse, I highly doubt it's a god of any religion, but creator if it did exist. The existence of evil doesn't perplex me. I think it comes from deep rooted issues within a person, if it doesn't, then it could be that the person hasn't developed empathy, which is the basis of our morality (imo). It can be recognized as a mental illness, It should be treated with pills if it can, and that person should be judged in this life, by us, not by the possibility of a god that will send him to hell. How do we judge him? Based on the empathy we feel for the victim (among other factors ofcourse).
@bold. I understand, but as you said it's an opinion, and aren't they a bitch. To me, I certainly am not convinced and until thoroughly convinced I will not embrace it. @italics. Okay. As I said, when you will be faced with it, you'll be left destitute before it.
@bold-underlined. Yes, and that's what I was trying to say. It is the law of the strongest that reigns, not the law of truth. Worse is, it is based on sentiment. What if you feel no empathy, but you should. Who will help you change your mind if all sheep see it the same way? Thank heavens for minority views...
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@ "@bolded". Then why is it that secular nations and nations with most atheists are generally happier than average? Most of the people I know are atheist, agnostic, or deists. None of which feel "angry and desperately empty". xD Most of the people I know couldn't care less about religious viewpoints and the idea of God, it doesn't matter lol. You give it way too much credit. And assuming you aren't lying about those people, it's obvious that that is a very small minority.
@ "@italics". Yup, Canada and The US. US = 15% atheist/agnostics. Big cities and some states may get to 25%. Canada = 30% atheist/agnostic. What I'm getting at is that religious viewpoints are not really that influencial here. Well, I guess there would be less divorces if those cities were very religious but that problem would be replaced by another problem caused by the religion. (buddhism is an exception). The women would also be afraid to divorce since they'd be frowned upon (at best), even if the husband was abusive or the relationship didn't work after a lot of effort. I do agree with some of what you said in there (although you exaggerated), but that's mainly the fault of bad parenting and education. And I can prove it. America has one of if not the worst schooling systems in the developed world. Sex education is horrible aswell, leading to unwanted and unplanned pregnancies because kids like me don't know how to use contraception properly, are told they are unreliable or aren't told about them at all, and kids are encouraged to wait until marriage to have sex (mainly in bible belt, religious states). This either leads teenagers like me to rebel (as teenagers do) and practice unsafe sex, or it leads to adults who are sexually frustrated and don't know much about sex. (I'm sure some turn out fine, but these two scenarios are likely). And that's where a lot of relationship and sexual issues stem from in america, bad education, not secularism. We don't have these issues in England. We have a high teen pregnancy rate compared to the world, but it's much higher in America (and it's evenly spread across the whole country, not just the east/west coast). Scandinavian countries don't have these problems at all.
On a personal level, and I'll be honest with you, I started having sex at 14, but I was educated, I knew the risks and I knew how contraception worked and where to get it, I also knew that it's in my best interest to make sure that my partner was also educated and we were both "ready". We were. It didn't cause any problems whatsover and infact, made us closer. We broke up eventually but it had nothing to do with sex.
About the media, again, when it comes to sex, it's a matter of education. Don't you think violence is a hell of a lot more of a problem in your country anyway?
@ "OF COURSE" I agree, America has serious issues, but it's not the fault of secularism, it's generally the fault of bad parenting and education (that's very, very general).
@ 2nd @ "bolded" I simply disagree.
@@"reasons to hate eachother" Nope, I said religion is another reason for people to hate eachother, I'd be an idiot to say it was the only. Religion is many cases isn't meant to lead to enlightenment, and when it is, it's been proven wrong time and time again. Going to ignore the devil talk for obvious reasons.
@ @"community" Exactly! :D
@ spiritual evil. I did give you evidence of where evil came from. Mental illness, past problems, insecurities and inability do feel empathy. (poor development).
@ the next "@bold" Agree.
@ "@italics" Nup.
@ "@bold-underlined" In fair societies, people are free to say what they want, they think for themselves and aren't "sheep" when it comes to life changing decisions. They are sheep when it comes to things like buying call of duty.
I did skip over the bit in the middle, they didn't seem as important as the other stuff, I have a short attention span and it was TL;DR for me.
