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Forums - General - You're driving while slightly drunk, kill a kid, injure another, what do you do?

 

What will you do!

Drive away & let the kid die 21 38.18%
 
Save the kid & go to ... 34 61.82%
 
Total:55
shuraiya said:
TheLivingShadow said:

What I would do if I were in that situation may be different than what I think I'd do in the situation if given, due to other, not necessarily selfish considerations, such as the concern for (if I had them) my own children if I went to prison. For that reason, I suggest one more assumption to idealize the moral problem: People don't depend on you.

With that above said, I can certainly say that at this point in time, given how things are now, I'd try to save the dying kid and then turn myself over.

Some people will shout pragmatical arguments justifying their decision to run away, but they are miserable people no matter what (again, we make our assumption that people don't depend on them). Also, If you turn yourself in because that would make you feel better, then you're not doing it for the right reason. You should turn yourself in because you just killed a child and almost (hopefully almost) killed another due to rashness on your side and your side alone.

Furthermore, note that I would consider the person who turns himself/herself in more free than the one who wouldn't, since their selfishness and desire for happiness is not enslaving them into making a different moral decision that they otherwise decided they would make as free thoughtful beings.

So yeah...I guess you can probably note I'm very Kantian.

Based on the senario presented, fault lies on both sides (driver and kids), but because alcohol is involved, jail is a certainty. Nearly every decision we make is motivated by selfishness. Whether we realize it or not, we make decisions based almost entirely on "what we can stomach:" Can I bear the weight of hiding what I've done? How can I ever hold a child of my own with all this blood on my hands? What will people thing when they find out? It wasn't my fauld I'm sure they'll understand. Pragmatism can actually be a means of mitigating the influences of selfishness in decision making, because one's decisions should be firmly rooted in pure practicality. You view is more idealistic; it focuses more on what should be as opposed to what is. Forget morals and ethics for a second, and ask youself another question: What is there to be gained from confessing to the death of one child and the near-death of another? Leave emotional considerations out of it and try to answer practically based on what is most benefitial to all parties involved.

Alright before I respond to the challenge of answering in a purely pragmatical sense (which is a no-brainer by the way), I must say that the bolded is a bold (pun) statement to make and one that can be debunked easily. In fact, consider just two arguments:

1. The kids are kids. You didn't just run over an adult who has (or should have anyway) complete sense of what he/she's doing. You ran over kids. Before you say that I'm giving kids more moral power than adults, that is not true. The sole truth is you cannot fault kids for getting lost.

2. You're driving in full knowledge that you drank. This argument alone trumps everything else in a moral and legal (though I don't really care about the legality of the issue here to be honest; that is not what I'm discussing) sense. By doing that, prior to driving you should subconsciously know that if something should happen because of your drinking, then obviously it is your fault. Now, the situation doesn't state it but it is implied that you ran over the kids because of the drinking.

 

Now, for the pragmatical answer, it is quite obvious that if a plan is not devised in time that would allow for the child to live and me to not go to prison, I must save my life first simply because in a purely utilitarian sense, I need to look after myself. The dead kid is dead is dead, nothing to do about that; and the almost living kid is probably gonna have a ruined life anyway. To save them and to go to prison would also cause me to get me life ruined and be less happy. But if I'm not caught, I will live plentifully (without remorse at all because you said not to consider emotions, though let me emphasize emotions are useless and out of topic here. If emotions dictate your actions, then you're only saving the kid's life in a pragmatical sense, i.e. that you would). Because utilitarianism seeks to make the biggest amount of people happier, then it's a no brainer you should just run away. Emotions vary widely among people, but I know I myself would have no trouble supressing them. Others, however, may even commit suicide because they simply cannot forego of their guilt. In that case, the pragmatical answer is to save the living kid. It would ultimately make that person happier. But, I'm not such a person, and hence I would just run away, in complete disregard of others' lives and my very own conscious freedom, but I would.

However, that is exactly the way an animal acts, enslaved to its own desires and emotions. I and everyone else here given enough time can find the utilitarian solution to most problems. The reason it doesn't work that way is because utilitarianism completely negates freedom. And I'm not talking about freedom as in you should do what you want, but freedom in the sense that you should have boundaries that you place upon yourself as a fully conscious and thoughtful being, and by adhering to these boundaries that you place upon yourself, in complete restraining of your emotions and your instincs, you are truly free. I understand it might be mind boggling at the beginning due to how society encourages you to take always a pragmatical approach, but while that is true for materialistic problems, it fails at dealing with the interactions of humans.

I know that I may not have explained my view in the most understandable way possible. Look up Immanuel Kant if you're still unsure about what I'm trying to say. While I don't agree with Kant in everything, I decide to take his basic approach to freedom as the best moral one there is.

If you do happen to understand what I mean and still disagree with me, please don't hold anything back in arguments. The only way to grow morally is to test them in logical debate. However, do note that I will only debate on the morality of the case, because otherwise we are not debating at all since we agree.



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i don't think i could live with myself if i ended two kids lives, so i would probably save the one that's still alive and turn myself in. the only thing that i know i would do is decide to dedicate my life to public service in some way.



Jay520 said:
@theonestar & theLivingShadow

I know the scenario has some major loop-holes in it. I don't have the time & energy to create a perfect one. That wasn't my purpose. I justed wanted to know how people would react if they had to choose between their freedom & someone else's life. The scenario is merely secondary. It's Meant for those questioning the possibility of the situation as opposed to telling what they would do.

If you want to point out the faults in my scenario, then go ahead. I know it's not perfect. But at least let me know what you would do if somehow you were in the most unfortunate predicament & you did have to make this choice. I'm really interested in what people would do if this happened, not so much in the possibility of this actually happening.

I really just wanted to ask "would you save a life you put in danger, if you knew you wer going to jail?" I know it's impossible for this to ever turn up, that's why I made the thread. I made the scenario to just prove the scenario can actually occur. I guess I've failed.

Don't worry; I understand completely what you tried to do, hence my first reply in this topic. This is a moral problem. Trying to find solutions that bypass the moral issue does not answer the moral question at hand. I think you should have emphasized the morality of the topic more in the first post, otherwise people will always look for ways to getting around the problem, and they will eventually find them.

I only said what I said to theonestar because I had already answered the moral dilemma from my perspective.



If you just ran over 2 kids, killing one of them because you were slightly drunk why would you risk driving to a hospital with a dying kid, which makes your driving even more urgent. You would probably end up hitting someone else and what good does that do?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

Let's be honest, Jay. I was right. I haven't read a single straight reply to your question since my post. Everyone is trying to twist the story, twist the outcome, so they don't have to face the exact situation you brought on them.

:P



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wfz said:
Let's be honest, Jay. I was right. I haven't read a single straight reply to your question since my post. Everyone is trying to twist the story, twist the outcome, so they don't have to face the exact situation you brought on them.

:P

Ignore my answer and a few others huh? Hahaha

However, you are right, but I think it is a truth that should be assumed from the very beginning, especially in Western, morally libertarian/utilitarian cultures.



I have a nissan 350z, i'd drive away so fast i'll be in a different state in 10 minutes. Then i'd probably kill my self from guilt.



"Defeating a sandwich, only makes it tastier." - Virginia

As many others have no doubt said, I would never get into that position. If I had changed as a person so much that I had even the slightest chance of doing such a thing, then I have changed so radically as a person that i cannot predict what this theoretical me would do.

Anyway, given the conditions in the OP, then I would take the blame and save the kids life.



I thought this was a simple question. Would you rather kill a kid or go to jail? I was being sarcastic, but the nitpicking of details is starting to creep me out.



TheLivingShadow said:
shuraiya said:
TheLivingShadow said:

What I would do if I were in that situation may be different than what I think I'd do in the situation if given, due to other, not necessarily selfish considerations, such as the concern for (if I had them) my own children if I went to prison. For that reason, I suggest one more assumption to idealize the moral problem: People don't depend on you.

With that above said, I can certainly say that at this point in time, given how things are now, I'd try to save the dying kid and then turn myself over.

Some people will shout pragmatical arguments justifying their decision to run away, but they are miserable people no matter what (again, we make our assumption that people don't depend on them). Also, If you turn yourself in because that would make you feel better, then you're not doing it for the right reason. You should turn yourself in because you just killed a child and almost (hopefully almost) killed another due to rashness on your side and your side alone.

Furthermore, note that I would consider the person who turns himself/herself in more free than the one who wouldn't, since their selfishness and desire for happiness is not enslaving them into making a different moral decision that they otherwise decided they would make as free thoughtful beings.

So yeah...I guess you can probably note I'm very Kantian.

Based on the senario presented, fault lies on both sides (driver and kids), but because alcohol is involved, jail is a certainty. Nearly every decision we make is motivated by selfishness. Whether we realize it or not, we make decisions based almost entirely on "what we can stomach:" Can I bear the weight of hiding what I've done? How can I ever hold a child of my own with all this blood on my hands? What will people thing when they find out? It wasn't my fauld I'm sure they'll understand. Pragmatism can actually be a means of mitigating the influences of selfishness in decision making, because one's decisions should be firmly rooted in pure practicality. You view is more idealistic; it focuses more on what should be as opposed to what is. Forget morals and ethics for a second, and ask youself another question: What is there to be gained from confessing to the death of one child and the near-death of another? Leave emotional considerations out of it and try to answer practically based on what is most benefitial to all parties involved.

Alright before I respond to the challenge of answering in a purely pragmatical sense (which is a no-brainer by the way), I must say that the bolded is a bold (pun) statement to make and one that can be debunked easily. In fact, consider just two arguments:

1. The kids are kids. You didn't just run over an adult who has (or should have anyway) complete sense of what he/she's doing. You ran over kids. Before you say that I'm giving kids more moral power than adults, that is not true. The sole truth is you cannot fault kids for getting lost.

2. You're driving in full knowledge that you drank. This argument alone trumps everything else in a moral and legal (though I don't really care about the legality of the issue here to be honest; that is not what I'm discussing) sense. By doing that, prior to driving you should subconsciously know that if something should happen because of your drinking, then obviously it is your fault. Now, the situation doesn't state it but it is implied that you ran over the kids because of the drinking.

 

Now, for the pragmatical answer, it is quite obvious that if a plan is not devised in time that would allow for the child to live and me to not go to prison, I must save my life first simply because in a purely utilitarian sense, I need to look after myself. The dead kid is dead is dead, nothing to do about that; and the almost living kid is probably gonna have a ruined life anyway. To save them and to go to prison would also cause me to get me life ruined and be less happy. But if I'm not caught, I will live plentifully (without remorse at all because you said not to consider emotions, though let me emphasize emotions are useless and out of topic here. If emotions dictate your actions, then you're only saving the kid's life in a pragmatical sense, i.e. that you would). Because utilitarianism seeks to make the biggest amount of people happier, then it's a no brainer you should just run away. Emotions vary widely among people, but I know I myself would have no trouble supressing them. Others, however, may even commit suicide because they simply cannot forego of their guilt. In that case, the pragmatical answer is to save the living kid. It would ultimately make that person happier. But, I'm not such a person, and hence I would just run away, in complete disregard of others' lives and my very own conscious freedom, but I would.

However, that is exactly the way an animal acts, enslaved to its own desires and emotions. I and everyone else here given enough time can find the utilitarian solution to most problems. The reason it doesn't work that way is because utilitarianism completely negates freedom. And I'm not talking about freedom as in you should do what you want, but freedom in the sense that you should have boundaries that you place upon yourself as a fully conscious and thoughtful being, and by adhering to these boundaries that you place upon yourself, in complete restraining of your emotions and your instincs, you are truly free. I understand it might be mind boggling at the beginning due to how society encourages you to take always a pragmatical approach, but while that is true for materialistic problems, it fails at dealing with the interactions of humans.

I know that I may not have explained my view in the most understandable way possible. Look up Immanuel Kant if you're still unsure about what I'm trying to say. While I don't agree with Kant in everything, I decide to take his basic approach to freedom as the best moral one there is.

If you do happen to understand what I mean and still disagree with me, please don't hold anything back in arguments. The only way to grow morally is to test them in logical debate. However, do note that I will only debate on the morality of the case, because otherwise we are not debating at all since we agree.

For the first two paragraphs, the OP implied that the kids suddenly jumped into the street--suggesting that even if alcohol wasn't involved, an accident would still have occurred. It was also implied that the amount of alcohol was insignificant enough not to impair one's senses, but that the mere presence of alcohol would ensure a prison sentence. That portion of the senario ensures that even if the driver is not at fault, he or she would still be imprisoned. All that isn't really relevant though, since ultimately the moral question remains unchanged.

You are right that there really is nothing to debate. For the most part, we are in agreement as far as pragmatism is concerned, but it would appear that we disagree on the value and necessity of morals themselves--which I suppose is an entirely different discussion. By that, I mean the value and necessity of morals agreed upon as a group.