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Final-Fan said:
Additionally, literacy was not as basic to education back then as it is today. You could be somewhat educated without being literate, and also he could have been able to read a little but not enough to read the kind of thing the angel was asking him to, etc.

Are you familiar with Occam's Razor?  Basically, it is a principle that generally recommends, when faced with competing hypotheses that are equal in other respects, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions.  

In other words, what's more likely: That an angel of god chose the prophet mohamed, an uneducated man, and had him write the qua'ran, or that someone lied?  Especially when you factor in just how many religions there are, and that...seriously, L. Ron Hubbard said the same thing, did he not?  Not that he was illiterate, but that the things he wrote were divine intervention by Xenu, or however you spell it.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor

Feel free to read the part about religion.  



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DélioPT said:

 

"admittedly this story has a happy ending for Job..."
But this IS a big part of the meaning of the Book of Job. What i see in that book is no different from what i see in the life of everyone and Jesus Himself.
You make it seem that God was playing with the devil, when it`s not that. If God praised Job it was because He was happy for him and with him. The fact that he let the devil tempt him - and that the conversation is known - is for only one reason: God loves us so much that He doesn`t want to control us. So He allows for you to make the call on what you want.
The happy ending is just representative of the retribution for loving God.

The Book of Job is the sign to show people what our eyes can`t see: devil`s temptations and God`s love.

O_O God loves his worshippers so much that he's willing to allow the devil to wipe out one of his most loyal subject's family, just so he can prove how loyal that subject is and spite the devil? This has nothing to do with 'controling' anyone. It's about treating human beings as mere toys, with whom God can play with however he wants, including throwing them in the fireplace of flushing them down the toilet, if he feels like it.

And the story's ending is about as happy as a story praising domestic violence. Not to mention that it reduces human beings to mere replaceable objects: Job's family is killed, and at the end god gives Job a new family, as if god just accidentally broke Job's china set, and is replacing it with a new one (one of the lessons of the story being that human beings are interchangeable). This isn't love, this is sadism and tyranny.

Honestly, I never understood how christians ever had the nerve to accuse the Greeks of believing in 'immoral deities', considering what they worship.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

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                                                                               (pizzahut451)

I was trying an angle of attack he might actually listen to, but sure.



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zarx said:
SOLIDSNAKE08 said:
of course god exists and its very simple to prove. just look around you, hell take a look at yourself in the mirror. forget science, god made science. alot of religious books have very specific details on our universe, the planets and how they work and all accurate. all this comes from god himself, not science. the way the world works is too perfect, as though god gimself is manupulating the planets. did you know the earth is perfect size for human life? any bigger or any smaller and it wouldnt be possible. to believe that our universe somehow just came together in the perfect spots all by itself is bizarre.


But the world is far from perfect, much of it is uninhabitable or is incapable of supporting the animals and humans that live there (much of Africa for example), it is full of war, pestilence, greed etc the planet is unstable causing earthquakes, volcanoes etc. 

 

You are thinking about it wrong human life is perfect for this size of planet, the planet came first and life adapted to it. And the fact that life developed on a planet that could suport it is just common sense, I mean it's not like life would develop on a planet that couldn't support it would it? In a universe that is increadably vast containing trillions of planets the fact that one happned to have the right conditions is just the law of averages working it's self out, it's basically the typewriting monkey anology given infinite time and space it had to happen eventually. And before you say that the fact that the universe is has the possiblity for life to develop given the right conditions is proof of God, it doesn't if it didn't we simply wouldn't exist all us existing is is proof that the universe was capable of creating a situation where we could. 


Just to answer your 1st paragraph, world isnt perfect because us humans made it so. I dont think he was talking about society in the world, i think he was talking about the nature and the structure of the world itself and how perfectly its working trough its complicated process. Pestilence, war and greed are all faults of humans, not the world we live in



Final-Fan said:

1. OK. 

2.  You're making that up.  There was one all about Jesus' childhood.  They got left out due to the opinions of the people in power in the church at that time ... fallible men. 

3.  You have a very different standard of "proof".  If 50,000 people saw it, surely one of them recorded it on a camera so we can all see the evidence.  I would give it more weight with the testimony AND the video. 

4.  Clearly I'm not going to sway you to the evident fact that God as described in Job is needlessly cruel. 


I gave my interpretation on why some books were not added to the Bible while remembering a line from the Bible. My view is that some things might have been left out because they weren`t relevant to the message of Jesus. Again, a hypothesis as i never read them nor i heard the explanation from the Church on the matter.

The miracle happened in 1917. There were no cameras back then! :)



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sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

 

"admittedly this story has a happy ending for Job..."
But this IS a big part of the meaning of the Book of Job. What i see in that book is no different from what i see in the life of everyone and Jesus Himself.
You make it seem that God was playing with the devil, when it`s not that. If God praised Job it was because He was happy for him and with him. The fact that he let the devil tempt him - and that the conversation is known - is for only one reason: God loves us so much that He doesn`t want to control us. So He allows for you to make the call on what you want.
The happy ending is just representative of the retribution for loving God.

The Book of Job is the sign to show people what our eyes can`t see: devil`s temptations and God`s love.

O_O God loves his worshippers so much that he's willing to allow the devil to wipe out one of his most loyal subject's family, just so he can prove how loyal that subject is and spite the devil? This has nothing to do with 'controling' anyone. It's about treating human beings as mere toys, with whom God can play with however he wants, including throwing them in the fireplace of flushing them down the toilet, if he feels like it.

And the story's ending is about as happy as a story praising domestic violence. Not to mention that it reduces human beings to mere replaceable objects: Job's family is killed, and at the end god gives Job a new family, as if god just accidentally broke Job's china set, and is replacing it with a new one (one of the lessons of the story being that human beings are interchangeable). This isn't love, this is sadism and tyranny.

Honestly, I never understood how christians ever had the nerve to accuse the Greeks of believing in 'immoral deities', considering what they worship.

But it is a question of free will (control or lack of it). Would you prefer God forcing you to love Him? God wants people on His side for the sake of loving Him, nothing else.
And God does care. God doesn`t care yet Jesus died so we could live with God forever... there`s a contradiction there. It`s not a question of replacing a china set but giving what would fulfill Job.
You are the one who sees people as things in this story.



I think i might have been a believer of Intelligent design even withour realizing.

Looking at people i see this: either a person lives in harmony or they live in chaos. What sets them apart? Harmony, a purpose, balance. A person that is at peace with oneself lives a balanced and harmonious life and can overcome the negative parts in life.
On the other hand, a person that is not at peace with oneself does not find anything but chaos, that being, doesn`t know where it belongs; can`t find a meaning so it ends up destroying itself. Not to be read literally, but you can see the difference between a person who fells beneath addictions and one that lives in love and peace.

If i look at how a coutry is ran i can also see two things: if a country is ran in a good and balanced way than, despite the negative parts, it can sustain itself - because it knows how. A country that does not do this will eventually find conflicts and "destruction" of it`s balance. Despite all the evolution not one change caused the ecosystem to simply colapse.

A planet like ours also lives on balance aswell as the universe. Had it not had balance or the know how within it and it would surely colapse because amongst all the changes everything happened in way that balance was kept. Despite all anomalies that might have happened not a single one destroyed it.

It`s like telling a blind man to lead the way. Doesn´t it seem more logical that someone who knows what He`s doing actually lead things up until now?
So i do believe that a balance and purpose do exist otherwise everything would go boom - our would have gone boom.
Now if everything had it`s own sense of purpose/idea of balance/etc.... another boom/chaos? But if they all had the same imprint, they could work together in harmony, hence having a universe that still can withstand itself.

At least that`s my interpretation of the universe and how it works.




SOLIDSNAKE08 said:
of course god exists and its very simple to prove. just look around you, hell take a look at yourself in the mirror. forget science, god made science. alot of religious books have very specific details on our universe, the planets and how they work and all accurate. all this comes from god himself, not science. the way the world works is too perfect, as though god gimself is manupulating the planets. did you know the earth is perfect size for human life? any bigger or any smaller and it wouldnt be possible. to believe that our universe somehow just came together in the perfect spots all by itself is bizarre.

 

I'd like to refer you to the logical fallacy known as Confirmation Bias.  (Well, a subsidary of it)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_Bias

Basisally: Just because something happened to you doesn't make it a miracle, there's a BIG universe out there with a lot of stars and planets, one of them had to have life like us. "what are the odds?"  Well, remarkably small, but so is the output on a galactic level.  Just because we happen to be alive doesn't mean we were gifted, we were lucky. 



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DélioPT said:
I think i might have been a believer of Intelligent design even withour realizing.

Looking at people i see this: either a person lives in harmony or they live in chaos. What sets them apart? Harmony, a purpose, balance. A person that is at peace with oneself lives a balanced and harmonious life and can overcome the negative parts in life.
On the other hand, a person that is not at peace with oneself does not find anything but chaos, that being, doesn`t know where it belongs; can`t find a meaning so it ends up destroying itself. Not to be read literally, but you can see the difference between a person who fells beneath addictions and one that lives in love and peace.

If i look at how a coutry is ran i can also see two things: if a country is ran in a good and balanced way than, despite the negative parts, it can sustain itself - because it knows how. A country that does not do this will eventually find conflicts and "destruction" of it`s balance. Despite all the evolution not one change caused the ecosystem to simply colapse.

A planet like ours also lives on balance aswell as the universe. Had it not had balance or the know how within it and it would surely colapse because amongst all the changes everything happened in way that balance was kept. Despite all anomalies that might have happened not a single one destroyed it.

It`s like telling a blind man to lead the way. Doesn´t it seem more logical that someone who knows what He`s doing actually lead things up until now?
So i do believe that a balance and purpose do exist otherwise everything would go boom - our would have gone boom.
Now if everything had it`s own sense of purpose/idea of balance/etc.... another boom/chaos? But if they all had the same imprint, they could work together in harmony, hence having a universe that still can withstand itself.

At least that`s my interpretation of the universe and how it works.


Very, VERY faulty logic. 



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DélioPT said:

But it is a question of free will (control or lack of it). Would you prefer God forcing you to love Him? God wants people on His side for the sake of loving Him, nothing else.
And God does care. God doesn`t care yet Jesus died so we could live with God forever... there`s a contradiction there. It`s not a question of replacing a china set but giving what would fulfill Job.
You are the one who sees people as things in this story.

The Book oj Job has nothing to do with free will. Job doesn't suffer the consequences of his own actions, what happens to him is beyond his control, and is the result of the devil's actions, which god encourages in order to spite the devil and further inflate his own ego. Protecting Job, who is his fateful servant, from soemthing beyond his control which he will not be able to stop (the calamities caused by the devil) wouldn't be taking away his free will, but showing gratitude and respect, and LOVE, something which God obviously does not have for Job, whom he sees as a mere puppet for his amusement.

'giving what would fulfill Job' - In other words replacing his old family with a new one. Do you really think that humans are so replaceable? If your parents were killed, could you just go hire some new people to take on their role, and everything would be like it was?

The reason why I'm seeing people as things in this story is because that's how they're presented, and that's how God views them and treats them in this story, something which is balantly obvious to all who wish to see. You are appearently too blinded by your worshipping to see it though.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)