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Player1x3 on 03 September 2011
Soleron said:
Immortal said:
Soleron said:
Immortal said:
...


...


I hadn't heard of it, but I know the concept already. I don't quite see how you're inferring your third statement, though. How is an axiom true if it cannot be proven to be so (okay, I just contradicted the definition of an axiom, but whatever)? It's just an assumption if it can't be proven, isn't it? Also, doesn't saying that rather destroy this thread? That something is true when it can't be proven... I think you can see the contradiction between that statement and the OP. I personally agree that taking the existence of a God or gods as an axiom is utterly ridiculous, but that's just an opinion. Also, while this is irrelevant, I'd argue that maths is actually more secure than physics. Physics, in most cases, has more to do with the real world (like your example of gravity), which just throws plenty more assumptions into the mix. You do realize, though, that we're sitting on a useless argument if we discuss what's "more true"? If I just want to be rotten, I can ask you how things are said to be more proven than others and who decides this based on what reasoning which has what qualifications to play a role like this in deciding such important matters. And then I can throw you a few more whys and wherefores until you get sick of arguing.

Also, when I was talking about math, I meant the completely nonsensical abstract stuff (like the fourth spatial dimension, an obsession of mine). It doesn't matter whether it can be proven as long as it's confined within the logic concocted by my mind and owes no explanation to any questioning soul.

It was in a book called The Music of the Primes by Simon Singh. It said that if we could prove the Riemann hypothesis was undecidable (per Godel), then it would have to be true, because if it was false one could find a counterexample and the problem would not be undecidable. So if it is undecidable it is true but we cannot show from the axioms of maths that it is.

I'm not claiming I can show those things are more true. I'm just trying to say that the fact you can't have an absolute proof standard, not even with mathematics, doesn't mean it is useless to argue about anything. God can't be proven or disproven =/= 50% chance of god existing. Gravity can't be proven or disproven =/= 50% chance of gravity existing. 

The incompleteness theorem means your personal logic can't be proven to be consistent either. Even if it's different to normal maths. I can also tell you don't have enough maths or physics education to understand what you are saying by fourth spatial dimension.

--

My main challenge to those of faith is:

if your god is a personal god that has an effect on the universe, why is the effect not measurable using science?
Alternatively if your god does not affect the universe, why is he deserving of worship? Your actions will have no effect.


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all



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richardhutnik on 03 September 2011
Player1x3 said:
Soleron said:
--

My main challenge to those of faith is:

if your god is a personal god that has an effect on the universe, why is the effect not measurable using science?
Alternatively if your god does not affect the universe, why is he deserving of worship? Your actions will have no effect.


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all

So, you are a deist?



Player1x3 on 03 September 2011
richardhutnik said:
Player1x3 said:
Soleron said:
--

My main challenge to those of faith is:

if your god is a personal god that has an effect on the universe, why is the effect not measurable using science?
Alternatively if your god does not affect the universe, why is he deserving of worship? Your actions will have no effect.


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all

So, you are a deist?

something like half deist half christian



Runa216 on 03 September 2011
Player1x3 said:


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all

How could you possibly know that?  How could you claim to know God's intentions or his actions? How do you know?  did he call you up?  Did he send you an Email?  I see you making a LOT of claims in this thread, baseless claims.  One instance of "This is how god operates, this is what God wants" after another, and not once have you offered evidence, I don't even recall you bringing forth bible quotes, though you may have and I missed it.  (Not like thats proof, that's heresay and is not able to hold up as evidence).  

This is exactly the issue I'm talking about here, plenty of people claiming "My religion is the right one", then going on to make all these assumptions based on individual interpretations, which are in turn derived from a book written from before we knew Mercury was toxic.  

It doesn't hold up. 



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Player1x3 on 03 September 2011
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all

How could you possibly know that?  How could you claim to know God's intentions or his actions? How do you know?  did he call you up?  Did he send you an Email?  I see you making a LOT of claims in this thread, baseless claims.  One instance of "This is how god operates, this is what God wants" after another, and not once have you offered evidence, I don't even recall you bringing forth bible quotes, though you may have and I missed it.  (Not like thats proof, that's heresay and is not able to hold up as evidence).  

This is exactly the issue I'm talking about here, plenty of people claiming "My religion is the right one", then going on to make all these assumptions based on individual interpretations, which are in turn derived from a book written from before we knew Mercury was toxic.  

It doesn't hold up. 


its the most reasonable and logical way of seeing, understanding  and accepting God to the human abilities as well the best way for science and spiritual religion not to contradict eachother. i was answering the guys question, i wasnt claiming i have the ultimate proof of anything. i never said my religion is true, as i dont follow any religious institutions. lots of theologists and religious writers would agree with me i know that



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Runa216 on 03 September 2011
Player1x3 said:
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all

How could you possibly know that?  How could you claim to know God's intentions or his actions? How do you know?  did he call you up?  Did he send you an Email?  I see you making a LOT of claims in this thread, baseless claims.  One instance of "This is how god operates, this is what God wants" after another, and not once have you offered evidence, I don't even recall you bringing forth bible quotes, though you may have and I missed it.  (Not like thats proof, that's heresay and is not able to hold up as evidence).  

This is exactly the issue I'm talking about here, plenty of people claiming "My religion is the right one", then going on to make all these assumptions based on individual interpretations, which are in turn derived from a book written from before we knew Mercury was toxic.  

It doesn't hold up. 

 


its the most reasonable and logical way of seeing, understanding  and accepting God to the human abilities as well the best way for science and spiritual religion not to contradict eachother. i was answering the guys question, i wasnt claiming i have the ultimate proof of anything. i never said my religion is true, as i dont follow any religious institutions. lots of theologists and religious writers would agree with me i know that


You're right, it IS a lot easier just to make stuff up and chose t he most convenient explanation rather than search for the truth...



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Player1x3 on 03 September 2011
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:


God doesn't interfere with nature and universe once he was done creating it. And the very fact he designed life and universe and that he gave me free will in life makes me not worship but love him, God doesn't need anyone to worship him at all

How could you possibly know that?  How could you claim to know God's intentions or his actions? How do you know?  did he call you up?  Did he send you an Email?  I see you making a LOT of claims in this thread, baseless claims.  One instance of "This is how god operates, this is what God wants" after another, and not once have you offered evidence, I don't even recall you bringing forth bible quotes, though you may have and I missed it.  (Not like thats proof, that's heresay and is not able to hold up as evidence).  

This is exactly the issue I'm talking about here, plenty of people claiming "My religion is the right one", then going on to make all these assumptions based on individual interpretations, which are in turn derived from a book written from before we knew Mercury was toxic.  

It doesn't hold up. 

 


its the most reasonable and logical way of seeing, understanding  and accepting God to the human abilities as well the best way for science and spiritual religion not to contradict eachother. i was answering the guys question, i wasnt claiming i have the ultimate proof of anything. i never said my religion is true, as i dont follow any religious institutions. lots of theologists and religious writers would agree with me i know that


You're right, it IS a lot easier just to make stuff up and chose t he most convenient explanation rather than search for the truth...


than please enlighten me with the truth, but dont forget to provide evidence for that first :) and i didn't make anything up at all



Final-Fan on 03 September 2011
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:

@DélioPT:

The one who tortured was Satan.

With the approval of god, who wanted to prove a point at the expense of the wellbeing of innocent human beings.

Me neither, since my feelings are for real things. Aren`t yours?

Don't know about you, but fictive stories get an emotional response out of me all the time.

The rest of your post isn't worth taking notice of.

"With the approval of god, who wanted to prove a point at the expense of the wellbeing of innocent human beings."
With the first part i agree, the rest just isn`t true. The only point shown is that if people hold on to their faith good things will come, more than you even asked for.

He really does love me.  He only beats me because I'm doing something wrong.  If I can just be good enough we'll be happy again. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome

For extra lulz: 
"The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient."



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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Runa216 on 03 September 2011
Player1x3 said:

than please enlighten me with the truth, but dont forget to provide evidence for that first :) and i didn't make anything up at all

The key difference being that I'm not making a high claim.  I'm not saying "there is no god" or "God does NOT feel this way", I'm just seeing an inconsistency and requesting supporting evidence.  



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blkfish92 on 03 September 2011

Have one look at me.

...sure hope nobody used that joke already