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DélioPT said:

I`m not going to tell you i already read the Bible from beginning to end or that i have perfect understanding of it and you don`t. And i hope you don`t take this in the wrong way.

"I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up"
There are parts os the Bible you can take word for word and there are other parts who speak more than just words.
When Jesus told the samaritan woman about the "living water" it`s not to be taken literally. It`s to show how faith in God, how love in God is all humans need to fulfill themselves. Just among one interpretation of living water.

"Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence?"
Do you really believe that makes a difference? What about the others who saw what Thomas saw and still didn`t believe? That case for example: if Jesus was so evident with all the miracles why was it that people still didn`t believe?
But you do have evidence (Bible, miracles, apparitions, people`s own experiences). The real question never is, was, will be, about if there`s something in front of you to be "seen", the question is do you believe them? And what that says of a person.
Still i would point out the Marian apparitions here in Portugal if you want more evidence.

About the book of Job.
In what way was Job different from you and me or even Jesus? Don`t we all get tempted by the devil? Even Jesus, the Son of God was tempted.
The Book of Job is about ourselves, not just Job, and how despite all things God`s there for those who stand by Him. Job was rewarded with more than He started with.
In other words, those who lose themselves, find themselves in God. That`s what happened with Job, Jesus and all those who want God.
The obstacles in our life are not enough to stop us. We can overcome them.

Well when Jesus speaks of "living water" it is easy to believe that he was speaking metaphorically.  But what about when the Bible says you shouldn't eat four-legged insects, except for the ones that jump around like grasshoppers and crickets?  (They have six legs.) 

I do think it makes a difference whether you have evidence or not.  And I mean reliable evidence -- the Bible may not have changed much since it was codified, but before that who knows what people might have made up?  I mean, why should I trust the books that were included but not the  apocrypha? 

Wikipedia:  "The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council."

I don't think you understand what I was objecting to in the story of Job. 

Satan:  (walks up to God)
God:  Hey, sup?  You seen Job?  He loves me so much it's awesome. 
Satan:  I bet that's only cuz you've been nice to him.  I bet if you wrecked his shit he'd hate you. 
God:  OH YEAH?  Go wreck his shit, just don't mess with him personally.  I bet he'll still love me. 
Satan:  (Kills all Job's children and all but three servants (so they can deliver the news) and destroys/steals all his stuff)
Job:  Easy come, easy go -- thanks for the good times, God. 
(LATER)
Satan:  (walks up to God)
God:  Hey, sup?  You seen Job?  He still loves me so much it's awesome. 
Satan:  I bet that's only cuz I couldn't mess with his actual self.  No possessions matter more to people than their own lives.  I bet if you tortured him he'd hate you. 
God:  OH YEAH?  Go fuck him up, just don't kill him.  I bet he'll still love me. 
Satan:  (Makes Job very sick and in great pain)
Job's wife:  WTF Job?  You still love God? 
Job:  Shit yeah, don't you badmouth God.  Man, I wish I was dead though.  I wish I'd never been born.  I wish God would just kill me already.  God, why are you doing this to me? 
(LOTS AND LOTS OF TALKING between Job and people)
God:  Who's the God here?  What do you know about anything? 
Job:  Hey, man, I don't know. 
God:  Are you gonna say I'm wrong? 
Job:  You're the God here, just tell me what's up.  It's pretty bad for me. 
God:  (Gives Job twice as much as he started with, including sons but not daughters because who the fuck cares about women)

Admittedly this story has a happy ending for Job, but God was a HUUUUGE dick throughout the entire story.  The whole thing is based on God putting his most devoted, beloved follower in the hands of the devil to prove a point.  One supposes this is meant as the Old Testament answer to "why do bad things happen to good people" but it's a terrible answer. 



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Allfreedom99 said:
Ah, yes....man will always want proof for every claim of existence. Its really in our nature to prove what is real...to be the one that is "correct". Several times I have gotten involved in these debates and the ball will continually get beaten around back and forth.

here is what I will say: scientists can observe that if they place pieces of metals, plastics, and various materials in a sealed room for many years and then observe the result it is not going to eventually form a laptop. The pieces will stay as they lay and even deteriorate over time. No scientist can observe any form of order taking place to better those materials into something more complex.

Therefore from scientific observation I don't see life spontaneously occuring no matter how much time is given. I have not seen science proove something like that occuring, so from a rational stand point I don't see how man can say there was no intelligent intervention in the beginning.

And so the rebuttals will continue...


What has the properties of inorganic matter got to do with the properties of organic matter exactly?  Why would scientists try and understand evolution and the inception of life by using inorganic elements?

Just curious because that's a pretty odd analogy in my book.

As for the thread, it's impossible to do really.  There is no direct proof for God anywhere so far as I am aware, just indirect and faith based - i.e. the Universe is complex therefore it must have been created, how can something like an eyeball evolve, etc.  Therefore it is impossible to do.  I mean as an atheist I find some of the responses pretty funny but c'mon, give the religious folk a break this request is impossible to fufill.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

I do agree with the OP on one point.

If people want six day creationism to be taught in a science class, then the proponents of six day creation will have to come to that conclusion using the scientific method. If not, then that explanation belongs in a religion class.



"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."  --Hermann Goering, leading Nazi party member, at the Nuremberg War Crime Trials 

 

Conservatives:  Pushing for a small enough government to be a guest in your living room, or even better - your uterus.

 

Final-Fan said:

Well when Jesus speaks of "living water" it is easy to believe that he was speaking metaphorically.  But what about when the Bible says you shouldn't eat four-legged insects, except for the ones that jump around like grasshoppers and crickets?  (They have six legs.) 

I do think it makes a difference whether you have evidence or not.  And I mean reliable evidence -- the Bible may not have changed much since it was codified, but before that who knows what people might have made up?  I mean, why should I trust the books that were included but not the  apocrypha? 

Wikipedia:  "The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council."

I don't think you understand what I was objecting to in the story of Job. 

Satan:  (walks up to God)
God:  Hey, sup?  You seen Job?  He loves me so much it's awesome. 
Satan:  I bet that's only cuz you've been nice to him.  I bet if you wrecked his shit he'd hate you. 
God:  OH YEAH?  Go wreck his shit, just don't mess with him personally.  I bet he'll still love me. 
Satan:  (Kills all Job's children and all but three servants (so they can deliver the news) and destroys/steals all his stuff)
Job:  Easy come, easy go -- thanks for the good times, God. 
(LATER)
Satan:  (walks up to God)
God:  Hey, sup?  You seen Job?  He still loves me so much it's awesome. 
Satan:  I bet that's only cuz I couldn't mess with his actual self.  No possessions matter more to people than their own lives.  I bet if you tortured him he'd hate you. 
God:  OH YEAH?  Go fuck him up, just don't kill him.  I bet he'll still love me. 
Satan:  (Makes Job very sick and in great pain)
Job's wife:  WTF Job?  You still love God? 
Job:  Shit yeah, don't you badmouth God.  Man, I wish I was dead though.  I wish I'd never been born.  I wish God would just kill me already.  God, why are you doing this to me? 
(LOTS AND LOTS OF TALKING between Job and people)
God:  Who's the God here?  What do you know about anything? 
Job:  Hey, man, I don't know. 
God:  Are you gonna say I'm wrong? 
Job:  You're the God here, just tell me what's up.  It's pretty bad for me. 
God:  (Gives Job twice as much as he started with, including sons but not daughters because who the fuck cares about women)

Admittedly this story has a happy ending for Job, but God was a HUUUUGE dick throughout the entire story.  The whole thing is based on God putting his most devoted, beloved follower in the hands of the devil to prove a point.  One supposes this is meant as the Old Testament answer to "why do bad things happen to good people" but it's a terrible answer. 


"But what about when the Bible says you shouldn't eat four-legged insects, except for the ones that jump around like grasshoppers and crickets?"
As i said, i never read the Bible, so, actually, to me that is a first... i think. Still, from what i saw on the internet it seems to revolve around being unclean and therefore to stay way from them. And the Law was to avoid impurity afterall.
I know very little about the apocrypha but it doesn`t seem to deny nothing that was said in the Bible about Jesus, God and Mary - about Mary, it seems to have a reference of her purity.

But if you still doubt - and it`s not my words that are going to change that - read the maria apparitions one day or other apparitions and you will see that what was said in the Bible about Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Mary was found in those apparitions, not just the figures but also their message.

"admittedly this story has a happy ending for Job..."
But this IS a big part of the meaning of the Book of Job. What i see in that book is no different from what i see in the life of everyone and Jesus Himself.
You make it seem that God was playing with the devil, when it`s not that. If God praised Job it was because He was happy for him and with him. The fact that he let the devil tempt him - and that the conversation is known - is for only one reason: God loves us so much that He doesn`t want to control us. So He allows for you to make the call on what you want.
The happy ending is just representative of the retribution for loving God.

The Book of Job is the sign to show people what our eyes can`t see: devil`s temptations and God`s love.



I think to this day the biggest logical "proof" for god was presented by a staunch Atheist - Aristotle.
Aristotle presented the idea of the first "force" or as he called it the "first mover" but I will expand that logical argument with a simple statement. First there is no way to prove that God is in fact real or even exists, however for the sake of this argument god is a perfectly rational statement (note the capitalization, they refer to two ultimately different people.) There will always be an unknown quantity, whether we can in fact appropriate the first motion that brought about our reality, something will remain unknown and i present to you that "this unknown" is the "god" you are so wanting to disprove. This is not a faith based argument, rather something i consider a simple solution to an impossible equation.

Will we in fact "know" that god exists, first you would have to define what is knowing? Is knowing and believing so different. Everything we thought we knew is in fact some belief that we once held. The earth is round was a belief but it was dominated by the idea the earth was flat for centuries until we were able to prove beyond reason that the earth is in fact round? But is it truly if mass bends space time and earth is mass isn't there a dimensional factor of "roundness" that is missing in our "belief" that earth is round. Is believing then also knowing? and if knowing and believing are so similar and knowing is proving isn't there an argument for God to be real based on collective belief?

Knowledge is god, and the closer we get to truths whether through knowing or believing the closer to god we become. In the context of a game are we not god to every character in The Sims based on our knowledge that we exist and they exist solely on a computer screen? As we poor our "soul" into characters is that not akin to godliness? Have you watched the Ghost in the Shell? or I Robot? or the Matrix?

But ultimately, seeing as how your atheist I shall present a scenario for you. What if, with all your logical uncertainty of god, he does exist? Wouldn't  it have been at least marginally beneficial to at least think he exists "knowledge of God is beneficial to every religion even satanism." And in the realm of scientific/atheistic thought isn't it always in one's own self-interest to doing something that is at least marginally beneficial to them in both the short-run and the long run?

Just something for you to think about.



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when referring to 'God', I always theorized that the diety was a metaphor for all knowledge beyond our grasp, or the unknown. That's why "The Gods" were responsible for rain, thunder, and lightning during a storm, they were responsible for earthquakes, and they were always responsible for giving us life and creation. God was always reserved to explain things beyond our comprehension and even the most intelligent christians still cling to that belief. since we do not know for 100% sure what or who created the universe (though we have very strong theories), a lot of scientifically minded Christians still insist that a divine creator must have made us, since we had to come from somewhere (a logical fallacy, but arguably the most intelligent argument Theists have to support their theory).



DélioPT said:
Final-Fan said:

Well when Jesus speaks of "living water" it is easy to believe that he was speaking metaphorically.  But what about when the Bible says you shouldn't eat four-legged insects, except for the ones that jump around like grasshoppers and crickets?  (They have six legs.)  


"But what about when the Bible says you shouldn't eat four-legged insects, except for the ones that jump around like grasshoppers and crickets?"
As i said, i never read the Bible, so, actually, to me that is a first... i think. Still, from what i saw on the internet it seems to revolve around being unclean and therefore to stay way from them. And the Law was to avoid impurity afterall.
I know very little about the apocrypha but it doesn`t seem to deny nothing that was said in the Bible about Jesus, God and Mary - about Mary, it seems to have a reference of her purity.

But if you still doubt - and it`s not my words that are going to change that - read the maria apparitions one day or other apparitions and you will see that what was said in the Bible about Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Mary was found in those apparitions, not just the figures but also their message.

"admittedly this story has a happy ending for Job..."
But this IS a big part of the meaning of the Book of Job. What i see in that book is no different from what i see in the life of everyone and Jesus Himself.
You make it seem that God was playing with the devil, when it`s not that. If God praised Job it was because He was happy for him and with him. The fact that he let the devil tempt him - and that the conversation is known - is for only one reason: God loves us so much that He doesn`t want to control us. So He allows for you to make the call on what you want.
The happy ending is just representative of the retribution for loving God.

The Book of Job is the sign to show people what our eyes can`t see: devil`s temptations and God`s love.

You're completely missing my point on the grasshopper thing.  The Bible thinks they have four legs when in fact they have six. 

I believe some of the apocryphal books contradict some of the canon books, and it was fallible men that decided which were canon. 

As for the "apparitions", I am of the opinion that they are hallucinated or otherwise imagined by the faithful, or in some cases by fakers. 

What kind of "temptation" is killing a man's family?  And part of what makes it so bad is that it was just God's bragging that started the whole thing, according to the Bible. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
 

You're completely missing my point on the grasshopper thing.  The Bible thinks they have four legs when in fact they have six. 

I believe some of the apocryphal books contradict some of the canon books, and it was fallible men that decided which were canon. 

As for the "apparitions", I am of the opinion that they are hallucinated or otherwise imagined by the faithful, or in some cases by fakers. 

What kind of "temptation" is killing a man's family?  And part of what makes it so bad is that it was just God's bragging that started the whole thing, according to the Bible. 

It was a question of interpretation i believe: "Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet"
Four legs, plus legs above the feet (interpretated as not helping propel, therefore the difference between feet and leg).
Insects were also visible at that time. So people could count aswell.

In one of the gospels, don`t know where exactly, it says to follow the path that only points to God. Why were some books not included? Probably because they stayed away from talking about Jesus and what His message was. Not to forget that some were recently discovered.

See, you got proof in front of you yet you dismiss them. What if 50.000 people witnessed a miracle in the sky? Would that change things for you?

The temptation only serves one purpose: to take people away from God. Whatever the shape or form, that`s the sole purpose.
It was not God´s words that started anything, it was the devil`s desire to destroy Job`s faith and hurt God, that started it all. As in real life.



jesus christ



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

DélioPT said:
Final-Fan said:

I believe some of the apocryphal books contradict some of the canon books, and it was fallible men that decided which were canon. 

As for the "apparitions", I am of the opinion that they are hallucinated or otherwise imagined by the faithful, or in some cases by fakers. 

What kind of "temptation" is killing a man's family?  And part of what makes it so bad is that it was just God's bragging that started the whole thing, according to the Bible. 

In one of the gospels, don`t know where exactly, it says to follow the path that only points to God. Why were some books not included? Probably because they stayed away from talking about Jesus and what His message was. Not to forget that some were recently discovered.

See, you got proof in front of you yet you dismiss them. What if 50.000 people witnessed a miracle in the sky? Would that change things for you?

The temptation only serves one purpose: to take people away from God. Whatever the shape or form, that`s the sole purpose.
It was not God´s words that started anything, it was the devil`s desire to destroy Job`s faith and hurt God, that started it all. As in real life.

1. OK. 

2.  You're making that up.  There was one all about Jesus' childhood.  They got left out due to the opinions of the people in power in the church at that time ... fallible men. 

3.  You have a very different standard of "proof".  If 50,000 people saw it, surely one of them recorded it on a camera so we can all see the evidence.  I would give it more weight with the testimony AND the video. 

4.  Clearly I'm not going to sway you to the evident fact that God as described in Job is needlessly cruel. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!