By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Bible prophecy coming true - A One World Religious/ Economic/ Government System

DélioPT on 06 July 2011
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

God knows what will happen, but that doesn`t erase the fact that you will have to live your life and make choices along the way. That doesn`t even erase the part where He tries to put you on the right path. The purpose of life and knowing everything still has to "happen" to be real.

"Right" and "wrong" aren't universal qualities, they're culturally determined. What's "wrong" in one culture can be considered "right" in another and vice versa.

As for your last paragraph, it does not change the fact that life, using all the rules of Christian dogma, is pointless.  God may try to "put you on the right path", but he still knows whether you'll accept or not. Read my post to Kasz. I already showed that Christianity negates the very purpose it attritbutes to life.

They are universal because people do define themselves by right and wrongs. People are aware of right and wrong, not just through moral principles but essentially by their motivations. What changes is how people view them, which depends on several factors, of course.
Problem is that if they are created everytime then you can`t understand the past nor criticize, but you do, don`t you? Nor could people even begin to undestand one another.

Just because someone knows the outcome of your actions that isn`t nearly enough to make them pointless. Things need to happen. The knowledge that God has, exists/is real because things happened, happen and will happen. You are no less free because someone knows what you decided to do, decide to do and will decide to do. Because in the end, it`s still your decisions that make up for your reality and your outcome.

Knowing something doesn`t negate you doing it, because if it did the knowledge wouldn`t exist in the first place.

 

"This is a contradiction. He sais that people have free will to do whatever they want with their lives, but also that god has deemed certain actions as being "right", and certain actions as being "wrong". In other words god isn't interested in people expressing their individuality, but rather in them caving in to conformity and "sameness". What room is there for individuality, when there already is a standard model that everyone has to adhere to in order for them to be "with god"?"

If God wasn`t interested in having power to decide then you wouldn`t have free will or the ability to think and feel. What God wants, and you can see that through Jesus' teachings is for you to understand and realize that your "best" is within God.
If you are created in His image, you and everyone are part of His nature: kind, good, forgiving... love. That`s why i said you find yourself in God.
Of course, if you don`t believe it`s another thing.



Around the Network
Soonerman on 06 July 2011

LOL! The U.S. would never give up the dollar for a unified monetary system. So thanks to America the world will be safe for a loooooooooooooong time to go



sapphi_snake on 06 July 2011

@DélioPT:

They are universal because people do define themselves by right and wrongs.

They're not universal, and I've already said why.

Problem is that if they are created everytime then you can`t understand the past nor criticize, but you do, don`t you?

You have to judge morality within the context of the culture that practices it. It's ridiculous to judge people form the past or from other cultures using the moral rules of your own culture.

Knowing something doesn`t negate you doing it, because if it did the knowledge wouldn`t exist in the first place.

God knowing what you will do negats the necessity of you having to do it. The purpose of life (according to Christianity) is to show god that you deserve salvation, however since god is all knowing, he already knows what you will do, and who will be saved and who won't, thus negatign the purpose Christians attribute to life. That's a contradiction.

If God wasn`t interested in having power to decide then you wouldn`t have free will or the ability to think and feel. What God wants, and you can see that through Jesus' teachings is for you to understand and realize that your "best" is within God.
If you are created in His image, you and everyone are part of His nature: kind, good, forgiving... love. That`s why i said you find yourself in God.

How does this in any way infirm what I said? You said that people can find individuality with god, and I proved tha tyour beleifs are contradicting. This paragraph does nothing more than reaffirm what I said. "Individuality" and "conformism"/"sameness" are antonyms.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 on 06 July 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

A. It's irrelevant when the belief system itself is contradicted by reality. (then again, in culture reality doesn't matter, and appearently people confuse culture with reality often)

C1. You said "it's good, because it's good". That's a tautology. And I'd like you to show me how helping others is in itself good. I know you can't, but amuse me. And no refrences to Christian dogma please.

C2. This is what he said:

You also have free will to do what you want with your life aswell - although there are consequences for all your actions -, so there`s all the room for individuality and unity with God.

This is a contradiction. He sais that people have free will to do whatever they want with their lives, but also that god has deemed certain actions as being "right", and certain actions as being "wrong". In other words god isn't interested in people expressing their individuality, but rather in them caving in to conformity and "sameness". What room is there for individuality, when there already is a standard model that everyone has to adhere to in order for them to be "with god"?

Christianity is also a belief system that claims to explain reality, so I'd say that whether or not it actually has any connection to reality or whether it's pure fiction is quite important.

D. What's the relevance of what you wrote? It seems like you meant to write this regarding the above point. We were talking about what Christians "think", and I actually used Immanent Critique to illustrate this contradiction in their beleifs system. It's not what I think, it's the logical conclusion that you come to when using the very rules of the Chritian dogma: if life has meaning and purpose (the purpose being salvation, and proving to god that you deserve it), but god is all knowing and already knows what people will do before they do it (and essentially what people will be "good" and end up getting saved, and what people will be "bad" and end up in hell), then life is ultimately pointless, because the purpose Christians attribute to it is negated (they don't have to prove anything to god, as god already knows what they will do before they do it, so life can just be skipped altogether).

Also, why don't you answer the questions you asked me yourself. If I remember correctly you're not a Chritstian, or religious. Why do you, as a whatever you are, chose to live? I chose to live because I want to, and regardless of what others may think of this reason, I do not care. With my limited knowledge of the universe (no different than the knowledge that all humans have, whether they like to admit it or not), it's the best and most honest reason I can find to want to live, without resorting to fantasies and delusions to find justifications for life.

A.  Well, YES.  It's called Immanent critque.  For a belief system to be full of contradictions, it MUST be so by it's own standards.  Though whether or not it contradicts reality is really unrelated since you've offered no proof of reality, only an equally unsupported opinion.

C1.  Again Immanent critque.  Though sure, there has never been a culture or even species of animal that has not seen helping others as something that should be done and "good."  It is one of the very few concepts that is morally absolute to the point of where psychologically one has to generally distance themselves greatly from someone else before they could leave someone let be.

C3.  Again no... it's not.  If my father says to me "I wish you to be a carpeneter" but you decide not to be, you are expressing free will.  Your father has not taken away free will because he'll be mad if you aren't a carpenter.  Otherwise you may as well argue there is no such thing as free will, since nearly EVERY choice we make in life has positive or negative implications.   Do I want to go to buy a candybar or an apple?  One of those has a greater benefit then the other, that doesn't mean i'm not exercising free will if I choose one.

D)  That would only hold true if life did not impact the indivdual in anwyay.  IE, life holds no value.  Have you learned NOTHING over the entire course of your life or never changed your opinion on anything?  If god were to take Oskar Schindler into heaven before the Holocaust, would he be the same as the Oskar Schindler after the Holocaust?

Furthermore, if god did do so, it would remove a person's sense of agency which would REALLY make the whole point of seperating the faithful and nonfaithful pointless. 

You aren't thinking hard enough... the problem is you aren't using immanent critque because you've already come up with your conclusion before you started, are hellbent on being right and therefore aren't rationally thinking through the situation.

It would no doubt leave a lot of people confused and bitter, as opposed to resigned and repentful.

 

Me?  I think life is very meaningful.



DélioPT on 06 July 2011
sapphi_snake said:

@DélioPT:

They are universal because people do define themselves by right and wrongs.

They're not universal, and I've already said why.

Problem is that if they are created everytime then you can`t understand the past nor criticize, but you do, don`t you?

You have to judge morality within the context of the culture that practices it. It's ridiculous to judge people form the past or from other cultures using the moral rules of your own culture.

Knowing something doesn`t negate you doing it, because if it did the knowledge wouldn`t exist in the first place.

God knowing what you will do negats the necessity of you having to do it. The purpose of life (according to Christianity) is to show god that you deserve salvation, however since god is all knowing, he already knows what you will do, and who will be saved and who won't, thus negatign the purpose Christians attribute to life. That's a contradiction.

If God wasn`t interested in having power to decide then you wouldn`t have free will or the ability to think and feel. What God wants, and you can see that through Jesus' teachings is for you to understand and realize that your "best" is within God.
If you are created in His image, you and everyone are part of His nature: kind, good, forgiving... love. That`s why i said you find yourself in God.

How does this in any way infirm what I said? You said that people can find individuality with god, and I proved tha tyour beleifs are contradicting. This paragraph does nothing more than reaffirm what I said. "Individuality" and "conformism"/"sameness" are antonyms.

You only showed how it changes from one place to another, not the fact that people live them.

"You have to judge morality within the context of the culture that practices it. It's ridiculous to judge people form the past or from other cultures using the moral rules of your own culture."
I`m pretty sure i read something talking about dark ages. Isn`t that past enough for it not to be judged?
It all comes down to your belief system and why such moral imperatives or used. You may not agree with other people but i don`t see how that`s a reason for not talking about what people all over the planet do.
Aren`t there high values like dignity, freedom? Because if you are making them local and not global, then why not go deeper and talk about people in particular? Being part of a culture does not mean everything.

What God knows is what you have done/what happened. That`s the part you keep overlooking and making it unimportant when it makes all the difference.

The last part of my comment was because of this: "In other words god isn't interested in people expressing their individuality, but rather in them caving in to conformity and "sameness". What room is there for individuality, when there already is a standard model that everyone has to adhere to in order for them to be "with god"?"

To which i answered: "If God wasn`t interested in you (corrected now) having power to decide then you wouldn`t have free will or the ability to think and feel. What God wants, and you can see that through Jesus' teachings is for you to understand and realize that your "best" is within God.
If you are created in His image, you and everyone are part of His nature: kind, good, forgiving... love. That`s why i said you find yourself in God."



Around the Network
Player1x3 on 06 July 2011
lestatdark said:
Player1x3 said:
lestatdark said:
DélioPT said:
The world was more devided than it is now and there`s a "push" for unity at the expense of "individuality", so it could be easier to control the masses. And you know, Satan is the false light that many will follow as to feel empowered - one way or the other.
Prophecies have also existed to this day like the Marian apparitions - which people should carefuly read.

Kinda ironic that you put it in those terms, when it was cristianity itself during the dark ages that almost destroyed the individuality for much easier control of the masses. The crusades, the inquisition, the witch trials, hundreds of thousands killed in the name of trying to annul everything that was different and that didn't mold itself by the christian thought and moral code. 

Have a look at how humanity suffered a massive technological, ideological and even humanitarian downgrade after the fall of the Roman/Greek ideology and rise of the christian ideology. That is why I sincerely scoff at these kind of religious claims that the christian message is the one true message and that everything had been predicted and prophecized by them. Were christianity to have won over the scientific advance during the age of enlightment, we wouldn't have this conversation now. 

Actually, it was the christian church that is responsible for it. Are you one of those people that cant see the diference between religious institution and the religion itself? Than n wonder why you hate Christianity that much.  Also, catholic church was responsible for the most scientific advantiges during the 11th-16th century. Also, lots of important scientists during middle ages and afterwards were christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

And I fail to see how Roman era was any better than Christian one, except for being a lot more open minded about sexuality of people. You also fail to see the difference between eastern orthodox church,protestant church and catholic. The first 2 have a lot less blood on thier hands and they both advertise(because thats what the church is : an ad for a specific religion) Christianity.Its stupid to choose to see only bad parts of one church and ignore all the good sides of it and its achivments, unless you seek to have negative impression of it. You also fail hardly to understand the real christian message.

 

Ah, just because I have some negative impressions of Christianity, you think that I hate it? I really have no hate for christianity nor for any other religion as well, as each one has it's own importance for it's believers. I come from a heavy christian background, with my grandparents being some very strong believers so I'm well versed in a lot of matters about it. 

Fair enough. But I still wonder how can someone who comes froam  a heavy christian background not know the most basic teachings and messages of Christianity, unless of course you just choose to rebel against it and see only the parts you dont like about it.


It's odd that you point out that list, when you can clearly see that (especially on the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th century) most scientific advancements were either adaptations of arabic and greek texts or just dissemination of former knowledge. It's not only until the 15th and 16th century that actual new scientific knowledge is formed. And really, a list that puts Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton and especially figures such as Pascal, Galileu and Descartes all of those who came in direct conflict with the church (some even having their works banned by the church) labelled christian thinkers as if christianity had a role to play in their discoveries is faulty, at best. 

Why does one need to be favoured by the church to be called a real Christian? That list shows important christian thinkers, not christian thinkers favoured by the church. Galileo was clearly a christian, yet he had conflicts with the church. And my whole point was to prove that Christianity didnt downgrade science like you said, it only helped perserve it. Heck, in most areas it was the only source of knowledge available (across Europe and Little Asia)

I don't seek to have neither a good nor a bad impression about it, I just try to look at all the facts. And in the scientific circles, the great impact of the christian/catholic church in scientific advance/degradation is heavily debated.

Like Kazs said before, it wasnt the rise of Christianity that caused DarkAges (Christianity existed 1000 years before Dark Ages even started), it was the fall of Roman Empire, and all the less civilzed people coming to power (Gauls, Germans, Celts, Visgoths, Slavs) Romans used to controll most of Europe, western Asia and norhtenr Afrika, and thus making traveling, information keeping and perserving the knowledge of the humans much easier, not to mention keeping peace and allowing humanity to foucus more on its progress rather than on war. You know, there is a reason why italy was the one that started the Rennesanse and why most of most important scholars and scientist during the 2nd milenium were Italians.

You want to know what things were better during the Roman Era than in the Christian one? Let's just start with mathematical knowledge. Or how about a basic sanitation system, which in the catholic era was only available to the church and the nobles. How about access to knowledge to the overall population and not restricted to one circle only. How about the preservation of the arts and culture and proper divulgation about it and not considering it an abominable thing? The list can go on (especially if you compare the classical greek era to the christian one), but to say that the roman era was at least equal to the christian one is a disservice to knowledge and history itself.

I highly doubt your averige roman citizen was more knowledgeable of the world that your averige roman citizen was during the christian era. You also forgot to mention all the barbaric social norms Christianity put an end to in italy, such as slavery and sacrifaces of animals and humans, as well as pagan witchcraft practices





richardhutnik on 06 July 2011
lestatdark said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
lestatdark said:
DélioPT said:
The world was more devided than it is now and there`s a "push" for unity at the expense of "individuality", so it could be easier to control the masses. And you know, Satan is the false light that many will follow as to feel empowered - one way or the other.
Prophecies have also existed to this day like the Marian apparitions - which people should carefuly read.

Kinda ironic that you put it in those terms, when it was cristianity itself during the dark ages that almost destroyed the individuality for much easier control of the masses. The crusades, the inquisition, the witch trials, hundreds of thousands killed in the name of trying to annul everything that was different and that didn't mold itself by the christian thought and moral code. 

Have a look at how humanity suffered a massive technological, ideological and even humanitarian downgrade after the fall of the Roman/Greek ideology and rise of the christian ideology. That is why I sincerely scoff at these kind of religious claims that the christian message is the one true message and that everything had been predicted and prophecized by them. Were christianity to have won over the scientific advance during the age of enlightment, we wouldn't have this conversation now. 

It's disingenuous to say that Western Europe had a big fall because of the rise of Christianity, even though the Dark Ages coincided with it. The Church was pretty much the only vehicle keeping knowledge alive in the West (which gave them a monopoly on information that they later abused to an extent), so they deserve credit, as if the Church hadn't been around as an institution, most of that knowledge would have been lost (though it would have been reclaimed i suppose)

Plus the Church ended a few barbaric practices of pagan times. I'm not saying the Church is blameless in history, far from it, but it isn't responsible for the dark ages

Eventually anyway...  Some of that shit we've just gotten back last century. 

Even then the Dark Ages weren't that dark though... granted largely thanks to the Christian Church as mentioned.

It wasn't really so much a time of "going backwords" but a time of limited foward movement... and even then there was plenty of progress made before the "Renissance".

In reality a lot of it is just framing that got spread out and blown out of proportion like culture.  Like all of those "People thought the earth was flat at this time" suggestions and all kinds of shit that people think is true about history but historians will tell you is bullshit.


What people don't totally comprhend is that printing presses and computers and shit didn't exist then.  It was actually fairly hard to keep information alive and well through generations, espiecally when all kinds of people died early.

It's like when Galen died, rather then those who came after him surpassing and expanding on his works, they each took parts of his work as other parts just fell away and nobody really focused on observation and expermentation... (in the west).

Actually this part is total BS. Information was passed on and kept in massive libraries, the most important of all being the alexandrian library, which at it's peak capacity was bigger than any current library nowadays and that lasted for at least 8 centuries, until someone came and though "hey let's us burn all this pagan knowledge down because it's an affront to our beliefs". 

A lot of things happened to the Library of Alexandria.  It was destroyed in fires, during military conquests, and apparently the last was due to a decree by a Byzantine emperor, which is what you mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

 

To end up say, "Those dang religious folks are the ban to ALL forms of knowledge and progress", and then imply that such individuals are responsible for EVERY form of evil on the planet is an extremely gross bad characterization, and borders on character assassination, based on stereotypical thinking, which such individuals don't tolerate in any other area, EXCEPT when dealing with religion.



richardhutnik on 06 July 2011
sapphi_snake said:

 The purpose of life (according to Christianity) is to show god that you deserve salvation, however since god is all knowing, he already knows what you will do, and who will be saved and who won't, thus negatign the purpose Christians attribute to life. That's a contradiction.

 

Upon what state, form, knowledge base, experience, or whatever else you want to bring to the table, do you reach the conclusion that the purpose of life, according to Christianity, is to "show God that you deserve salvation".  I think it is very clear, based on scripture, doctrine, tradition, writing, and everything else, that salvation is by mercy, with grace and faith only, and no one deserves it.  If it was deserved, it wouldn't be an act of grace.  I am sorry that you have this understanding of the Christian faith, because it is inaccurate.  I could even get into Catholic theology saying the same thing.  I also can get into the nuances that determine whether someone accepts a full Augustinian view of total depravity (Reform theology) or allows for some free will in the matter (Catholic teaching).

I personally think, unless you can demonstrate even a basic understanding of Christian theology, you are ill equiped to speak about what Christianity says or what it is about.  It doesn't help matters if you bring ignorance and a perverted understanding that is wrong.  And, maybe you grew up in it, but it doesn't mean you understand it properly now.

 



sapphi_snake on 06 July 2011
Kasz216 said:

A.  Well, YES.  It's called Immanent critque.  For a belief system to be full of contradictions, it MUST be so by it's own standards.  Though whether or not it contradicts reality is really unrelated since you've offered no proof of reality, only an equally unsupported opinion.

C1.  Again Immanent critque.  Though sure, there has never been a culture or even species of animal that has not seen helping others as something that should be done and "good."  It is one of the very few concepts that is morally absolute to the point of where psychologically one has to generally distance themselves greatly from someone else before they could leave someone let be.

C3.  Again no... it's not.  If my father says to me "I wish you to be a carpeneter" but you decide not to be, you are expressing free will.  Your father has not taken away free will because he'll be mad if you aren't a carpenter.  Otherwise you may as well argue there is no such thing as free will, since nearly EVERY choice we make in life has positive or negative implications.   Do I want to go to buy a candybar or an apple?  One of those has a greater benefit then the other, that doesn't mean i'm not exercising free will if I choose one.

D)  That would only hold true if life did not impact the indivdual in anwyay.  IE, life holds no value.  Have you learned NOTHING over the entire course of your life or never changed your opinion on anything?  If god were to take Oskar Schindler into heaven before the Holocaust, would he be the same as the Oskar Schindler after the Holocaust?

Furthermore, if god did do so, it would remove a person's sense of agency which would REALLY make the whole point of seperating the faithful and nonfaithful pointless. 

You aren't thinking hard enough... the problem is you aren't using immanent critque because you've already come up with your conclusion before you started, are hellbent on being right and therefore aren't rationally thinking through the situation.

It would no doubt leave a lot of people confused and bitter, as opposed to resigned and repentful.

 

Me?  I think life is very meaningful.

A. Thing is, Christianity really is full of contradictions. Already pointed out some in this very thread.

C1. What Immanent Critique? Is it your new catch-phrase or something? We were not talking about a particular belief system. I told you to prove to me that helping others is in itself good, that it's an intrinsic quality of this act. Your claim that there has never been a culture or even species of animal that has not seen helping others as something that should be done and "good." is not only false (I remember reading an article about morality once, where it was mentioned that there was a tribe in Austrialia where things like lying, murder, and quite frankly the exact opposite of "helping others" was seen as good, plus there are several examples in the animal world of animals who do not even help members of the same species), but I fail to see why this would be proof that helping others is intrinsicly good. Going by your logic misogynism and racism are also intrisicly good, as they're present (and have been encouraged) in pretty much every culture. Try again.

C2. What does free will have to do with what I was saying? His claim was that there`s all the room for individuality and unity with God and I went on to disprove this. Also, unlike your "candies and apple example", not all actions have "positive or negative implications" that are caused by the action themselves. All the things that god labels sins aren't so because they bring bad consiquences themselves (because lots of things considered sins are not intrisicly bad, such as homosexuality), but because "god says so". There is no room for individuality if you wanna be "with god", as only there is a standard model considered "good" that people need to adhere to, in order to be "good" themsleves. Conformity and individuality don't go together. Again, I was not discussign free will at all.

D. But you are the one who is not thinking hard enough, and quite frankly, considering the terribly poor responses you're providing (that seem in places to not even have anything to do with what I'm arguing), I wonder if you're thinking at all...

Yes, life does have an impact on the individual. But god, being all knowing, already knows what this impact will be. Yes, god needs to separate the faithful and not faithful. But since god is all knowing, he already knows who was/is/will be faithful, and who will not. Look at life as a movie, with human beings as characters. God is the spectator, and he has to evaluate each character based on their actions in the movie. However god already has the screenplay, he's read it, he knows what every single thing each character will feel, think, want, desire, do, won't do, how things will affect them etc. He knows the outcome. Is there any point in seeing the movie, when all that needs to be known already is? No, there isn't. You can argue that people have free will etc., but since god is all knowing, he already knows how they will use their free will (else he would not be all knowing, which is a CONTRADICTION to Christian dogma).

You think life is meaningful? Gosh, you've convinced me with your incredible arguments. How could I have been so blid??? ... Oh, wait a minute. I see no arguments. Care to elaborate on WHY you think life is meaningful?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake on 06 July 2011

@DélioPT:

Being part of a culture does not mean everything.

For the vast majority of people, it is everything.

What God knows is what you have done/what happened. That`s the part you keep overlooking and making it unimportant when it makes all the difference.

In order for god to be all knowing, he needs to also know what WILL HAPPEN. Else god is not all knowing.

To which i answered: "If God wasn`t interested in you (corrected now) having power to decide then you wouldn`t have free will or the ability to think and feel. What God wants, and you can see that through Jesus' teachings is for you to understand and realize that your "best" is within God.
If you are created in His image, you and everyone are part of His nature: kind, good, forgiving... love. That`s why i said you find yourself in God."

In other words, god does not want individuality, but sameness and conformity. Do you even know what individuality is?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)