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Forums - Nintendo - All right gamrConnect, we're going to play Zelda games together!

Soma said:
That spin thing you get in the Gerudo temple is cool and the boss battle is impressive! Too bad the bosses are very easy... they should make more damage not the same as normal enemies.

Interesting hearing the comments of someone on his first play through this game. I beat it on gamecube(60 hours+) then again on wii(40 hours+).



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RolStoppable said:
Mr Khan said:
RolStoppable said:

Of course it is related to the 2D design. Action can be way more intense, yet still be fair in a game like ALttP. Since it's pretty much impossible to replicate this sort of game design in a 3D space with a moving camera, this is reason enough to continue making 2D Zelda titles, because they offer something different that is good.

I would cite Monster Hunter as a game that does fights in 3D with a good deal of risk and fast-moving, challening bosses that can take a lot of damage and not really go down

If there's one thing Nintendo needs to rip off of another developer shamelessly, it's making 3D Zelda boss fights more like Monster hunter (but so that the fights take 10-15 minutes, not 25-45 minutes...)

I agree with the premise, but Nintendo better fixes the issues of MH if they take this route. Some sort of energy bar for the boss wouldn't be a bad idea, because MH is very frustrating in that you don't know how much damage you are doing with single attacks and how much you've done in total.

This. And for the regular enemies, they don't need to deal more damage per hit, they should just give them the ability to perform combos instead of a single strike every 8 seconds!



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I wouldn't have said the OoT bosses are more challenging than the TP ones (in general). Perhaps people are getting that impression because OoT was the first game many people played like that, and the people playing TP are generally made up of people who played OoT in the past (or games that have taken a similar formula) and are thus wise enough to know what to expect.
WindWaker bosses are definately less challenging though... In part I would guess it's because it's much easier to control the camera, which can occasionally be an issue when the L/Z-target system is also the only thing that allows the player to control the camera. In fact after the initial playthrough I don't think I really enjoy any of the WW bossfights apart from Jalhalla and the final Ganondorf battle.

I think I might get Monster Hunter Tri, I am not a big fan of the ridiculous amount of levelling up and "grinding" that games like it involve, in part because I tend to get sucked in for too long till I realise I am spending hours repeating the same thing over and over for little reward, but I mostly hear good about MHTri.

I would also like to put forward that Okami has a couple of pretty epic boss battles that have a similar "Zelda 3d boss" formula but still manage to be challenging (namely the 9 tailed fox and the final battle against the sphere thing) although I have only gone through them twice, perhaps if I repeated them as much as I have in Zelda games they would get mundane too.



TWRoO said:

I wouldn't have said the OoT bosses are more challenging than the TP ones (in general). Perhaps people are getting that impression because OoT was the first game many people played like that, and the people playing TP are generally made up of people who played OoT in the past (or games that have taken a similar formula) and are thus wise enough to know what to expect.


It was my first time against that boss, at the beginnig I didn't know what was his weak point and I got some hits. I looked at my hearts and I only lose one and a half or two at most! They are definitely less challenging than Ocarina. Like I said, the game was designed so it's almost impossible to die unless you really suck!



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tolu619 said:
RolStoppable said:
Mr Khan said:
RolStoppable said:

Of course it is related to the 2D design. Action can be way more intense, yet still be fair in a game like ALttP. Since it's pretty much impossible to replicate this sort of game design in a 3D space with a moving camera, this is reason enough to continue making 2D Zelda titles, because they offer something different that is good.

I would cite Monster Hunter as a game that does fights in 3D with a good deal of risk and fast-moving, challening bosses that can take a lot of damage and not really go down

If there's one thing Nintendo needs to rip off of another developer shamelessly, it's making 3D Zelda boss fights more like Monster hunter (but so that the fights take 10-15 minutes, not 25-45 minutes...)

I agree with the premise, but Nintendo better fixes the issues of MH if they take this route. Some sort of energy bar for the boss wouldn't be a bad idea, because MH is very frustrating in that you don't know how much damage you are doing with single attacks and how much you've done in total.

This. And for the regular enemies, they don't need to deal more damage per hit, they should just give them the ability to perform combos instead of a single strike every 8 seconds!

I agree for the most part but I would like to see regular enemies do a little bit more damage. Also they need to cut back on the number of bottles and reduce the effectiveness of potions.



 

 

 

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RolStoppable said:
TWRoO said:

I wouldn't have said the OoT bosses are more challenging than the TP ones (in general). Perhaps people are getting that impression because OoT was the first game many people played like that, and the people playing TP are generally made up of people who played OoT in the past (or games that have taken a similar formula) and are thus wise enough to know what to expect.
WindWaker bosses are definately less challenging though... In part I would guess it's because it's much easier to control the camera, which can occasionally be an issue when the L/Z-target system is also the only thing that allows the player to control the camera. In fact after the initial playthrough I don't think I really enjoy any of the WW bossfights apart from Jalhalla and the final Ganondorf battle.

I think I might get Monster Hunter Tri, I am not a big fan of the ridiculous amount of levelling up and "grinding" that games like it involve, in part because I tend to get sucked in for too long till I realise I am spending hours repeating the same thing over and over for little reward, but I mostly hear good about MHTri.

I would also like to put forward that Okami has a couple of pretty epic boss battles that have a similar "Zelda 3d boss" formula but still manage to be challenging (namely the 9 tailed fox and the final battle against the sphere thing) although I have only gone through them twice, perhaps if I repeated them as much as I have in Zelda games they would get mundane too.

The OoT bosses deal more damage per hit or at least they have one attack that does more damage than anything done by the bosses in TP. But really, this only has an effect on the first playthrough where you can still be caught off guard.

Monster Hunter is the epitome of grinding. There are no EXP in this game, all your stats are based on equipment. For that you have to farm material by beating the same monsters over and again. As such it's possible that you play a couple of hours with no gains whatsover (unlike in an RPG with EXP where you at least may gain a level or two). The game is incredibly repetitive and features barely any content when you reflect back on it.

Okami has some good, long boss battles and you actually have to heal yourself from time to time (definitely on the first playthrough, less so later on). Now if only the game didn't make you fight against the same bosses once again at the end of the game. Capcom just can't get rid of the Mega Man formula, it seems

Hmm, well ok. In both OoT and TP I don't tend to count the hearts I lose from boss attacks because there is no need... at least not when I am an explorer and hoarder, by the time I go against bosses that could be tricky I have found 2-3 additional hearts on top of the extras from defeating bosses, and due to the vases outside boss rooms I am always at full health on starting the fight. As such there is so much health there is little difference between TP and OoT boss damage, as the outcome is the same. The reason I thought WW was easier is that the bosses are generally quicker.

On hearing that description you have put me off MH again, I may pick it up in future (not as if there are any new games to look forward to after LoZ:SS) but I still have some older games I have not picked up that I would like to get first (Trackmania, Galaxy 2, Sky Crawlers and perhaps Conduit 2 being the ones I would like more than MHTri atm)

As for Okami I don't actually remember fighting the bosses at the end again tbh, is that before or after fighting the sphere thing? I don't think I can even remember all the bosses... There was the 9 tailed fox thing on the roof of some kind of castle, and at the top of a Japanese temple I think I fought the woman who became the fox (did she become it during that fight?) I also recall fighting 8 (or 9?) small foxes in the mouth of a whale or something. And also the final battle (which I think the first time took me about 40 minutes [including restarting the fight due to dying]) but there must have been more than 4 bosses.



As a make my way through Twilight Princess, I going to go on and say that Zelda's dungeons are actually devoid of puzzles nowadays. I mean really. Lighting torches to open a door or make a treasure chest appear, or stepping on floor switches to make doors open, or putting statues or blocks over floor switches to keep them suppressed so the door will stay open isn't really a puzzle to me. I understand that, these things are series staples and very obvious to the Zelda vet - yet Twilight Princess is full of these types of "puzzles".

I think other old-school action/RPGs like Alundra really did a great job with having well thought-out (and challenging) puzzles - much more ingenious than many of the puzzles we find in a Zelda game (though I'd have to play it again to really be sure - I'm going strictly off of memory here). I think Zelda's dungeons are more challenging due to it's well thought out layouts. i.e. knowing exactly which room is directly overtop of you or below you (most of ALttP's challenge stemmed from this mechanic), figuring out how a change made in one part of the dungeon effects other parts of the dungeon (good example would be the pillar in OoT's Fire Temple, raising water levels in OoT's Water Temple, or flipping Rockvale in MM), etc.



That's a fair assessment, I think. I wouldn't say there is a problem though. While there is a general reliance on quasi-puzzle tropes, the games do tend to create a slew of genuine puzzles from their overarching mechanics + dungeon items. What I like about these instances that that they often introduced a simple puzzle-principle (preferably with a performative edge) and then expand upon them laterally. The most famous example is probably the Magic Mirror + Light/Dark World relationship in ALttP. Twilight Princess doesn't have many instances of this kind of design, though.



RolStoppable said:

Yup, the outcome is the same. I think by now every fan agrees that bosses in Zelda need to become more difficult again.

I suppose you aren't thinking of getting Xenoblade Chronicles yet, but despite it being a JRPG, I think it's a game you could like (moreso than Monster Hunter Tri). Huge world to explore and grinding kept to a minimum, because you don't only get EXP from defeating monsters, but also for completing sidequests and exploring the world. Well, I'll get the game this week, so I'll be able to talk about first hand experience in the coming weeks.

In Okami, you fight four bosses again right before the confrontation with Yami (the sphere thing). The nine-tailed fox is one of them, the others are the spider from the forest, the "swordsman" from inside the King's belly and Orochi. All of them are stronger versions than before and I especially dislike Orochi, because it's the third time you have to fight him. Fighting previous bosses is just a cheap way to stretch the game's length and considering Okami's length, it's actually entirely unnecessary.

I hadn't considered Xenoblade at all, the JRPG genre has never piqued my interest, although having not ever played one (well, maybe 10 minutes of Pokemon if that counts as one) I don't really know much about them at all.



Soma said:
TWRoO said:

I wouldn't have said the OoT bosses are more challenging than the TP ones (in general). Perhaps people are getting that impression because OoT was the first game many people played like that, and the people playing TP are generally made up of people who played OoT in the past (or games that have taken a similar formula) and are thus wise enough to know what to expect.


It was my first time against that boss, at the beginnig I didn't know what was his weak point and I got some hits. I looked at my hearts and I only lose one and a half or two at most! They are definitely less challenging than Ocarina. Like I said, the game was designed so it's almost impossible to die unless you really suck!


    By now you're probably in the Snowpeak Ruins. I beat the miniboss there in one hit (I'll tell you how i did it after you fight it). From the Skyward Sword previews I've read and watched, I can tell they are addressing this issue and making the minibosses and bosses tougher but I'm still concerned because it looks like the regular enemies are still as stupid as ever. This takes out all the fun of fighting a horde of about a dozen enemies, which hardly ever happens in 3d zelda anyway. In the snowpeak ruins, you do get to fight these ice warriors that can actually give you trouble, much like regular enemies in most other 3d adventure games!



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