=/ yep.

I think a few quotes would be nice, you could say I'm cheating but they sum up my points pretty nicely.

George Bernard Shaw:

"Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."

That's addressing the (possible) future election. It really doesn't matter if they are democrats or or Muslim Botherhood if they are corrupt.

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VERY important detail about the Muslim Brotherhood. Tariq Ramadan who is known to have helped finance 9/11 and gave financial and verbal support for some Islamic terror issues in England and western countries is the crux.  He was banned from the US though he is a Oxford professor. Now that's not even mentioning how when he goes to Tehran U or any other  Muslims country he speaks in signs suggesting that terror is what should be done and advocating Muslim dominance. His position in the Oxford University Faculty of Theology is paid by quatar emirate following the demand of the Muslim Brotherhood preacher Youssef Qaradawi.

Another detail about the Muslim Brotherhood is that they are bed buddies with the OIC which was already in bed with Egypt in the form of Hosni Mubarak, a great example of their agenda would be the black mailing of Denmark by the OIC after the president of Denmark refused to meet their demands of nationalising the Free Press.  (Other demands as well) The Muslm Brotherhood and OIC are responsible for well coordinated attacks  on Denmarks Embassies around the world.

Which forces me to another detail about Youssef Qaradawi since you brought up Hezbolah, he directly supports Hezbolah and it's anti-semitic actions, he also identifies Jewish women as soldiers, he issued a fatwa to support Hezbolah and for a unified Messopotamian Arabic movement toward the destruction of Israel in support of Hezbolah. This has nothing to do with Lebanon it's just about what happens when religion is politics.

Lebanon for all intents and purposes is Afghanistan without a US military war effort. The ones caught in the middle are the ones who want to live in peace; who are the ones who need to do something about it.

"Evil thrives when good men do nothing."

As such...

It's the sad fate for the  person who refuses to fess up to their own short comings, whats a sadder fate is a whole nation that would refuse to fess up to it's own short comings and what's the saddest fate? Well I'll keep this one a secret.

Egyptians could blame the flying pizza monster for keeping Mubarak in power it doesn't change that they are the ones who could and did oust him, it's called a revolution revolt for a reason.

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The cost of freedom is not the blood of Americans. Americans learned that in Vietnam which might be why they are so iffy about staying in Afghanistan. (Chalk one up for history there.)

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Not even going to get started with anti-semitism topics then I'd probably end up trolling =P.

Edit- Sorry got sleepy and didn't feel like jotting more quotes that I might have to clarify in another post.

did i say its israels fault no i didn't so don't take what i say out of context. please spare me the god bullshit, christains were walking with muslims, muslims prayed in their way and so did christains in tahrir square so forming an islamic caliphate system is your dream not mine i am an egyptain and i have no dreams in an islamic caliphate, i do however have dreams about selling gas to israel for full price and supporting gaza and there being peace between israel and palestine. you my friend don't know the camp david account right which made us sell gas at full price back then but inflation has increased prices enourmously, it has been discussed on almost all egyptain channels the camp david account go read that then come back and speak rationally. people in egypt know what they want, its not because they want different things other than what you want means that they aren't aware. you do know egypt has the highest rate of kidney failure in the world i guess the medicine is helping alot when we pay for it, the government doesn't give us medicine for free we buy it, please egyptain universities where ranked in the top 500 before mubarak stepped to presidency since then universities have gotten worse and worse i guess all the money he took helped alot in improving universities. we want freedom, human rights, being able to live happily in egypt, we want to be the leaders of the arab world again i don't think thats too much to ask for especcaily with egypts resources and geographical location.

I've already said that the gas prices are estimated by OPEC,  the prices and the process that each country sells gas per gallon differs based on the various charges. In other words even if both Israel and Egypt were getting gas at $50 a barrel if internally your charges were different the prices could be different on the street. The difference between prices per barrel can also come by the % regulated by each government or government agencies, most time's it's OPEC and each government. Israel pays around $75 a barrel for Suez brew, which again considering the geography and the extra charges mentioned that might be more affordable or omitted I don't see where they are getting dirt cheap oil.

The only reason this is true is because in Israel and the US at least and I'm not sure about Egypt, vendors are not allowed to make money from the natural gas itself. At this point your dealing with nothing subjective. The pricing difference may have more to do with how much is being covered by tax payers... (bond holders)

Second whatever position Egyptian  higher education facilities are in doesn't change that a vast amount of money (billions) have been spent on civil ordinances over only the last 10 years. I have a number for the educational ones but I honestly don't know the money that was sunk into medicine.

What god bullshit? Your starting to condescend and at this point I'd wonder who is thinking rationally? And Muslim or not it doesn't make a lick of difference, I should have quoted you on the Israel part, then you couldn't have brought up a contextual issue later... Oh well.

I also do watch Al Jazeera from time to time, I assure you that you can rely on them as much as Americans can rely on their major news channels. In the end you have the best news source: the internet, its forums like this where hopefully raw info and points of view can be shared. Do not think that because I am sharing mine that many others consider this point of view. I play off the cliche's which are usually over looked factoids and I share them when I want to, and if the cliche hit's a nerve I've done my job.

Just because someone isn't seeing it your way doesn't mean you should call it bull shit. If you want take up the exercise then find me one nation sustained in democracy with enlightenment values in history that also has theocracy politically implemented.

I'm not saying it's just about getting god out of their government but I am saying it's a step in the right direction. That's just me being realistic. If you want my opinion, if you'd have me it's very short:

I wish Egypt would form an Anarchism with a Libertarian Capitalism.

But I HIGHLY doubt that will happen and it doesn't mean I am saying they must do it, don't be absurd who am I?

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Looking back at this post I see your response has become personal because most of my response seems to be describing my position, at the end of the day I couldn't begin to point out all of the angles dealing with geopolitics here on a forum. (My ex-wife could only because she loves to type.) The information is there though… Actually guess I could go to the old cliché and sum up all nations of the world foreign policy with the middle east in three words. “blood for oil”

You need to stop thinking as if everything we do is for the right reasons and for the benefit of world wide peace and stability. It's only purpose is to serve the agenda of the worlds wealthy business elite which make up a tiny fraction of the worlds population. They are all in bed together, set out to create a worldwide corporate plutocracy, with countries in the 3rd world mainly acting as service sectors such as to oil the industrialised nations. In fact what the worlds business elites do is very harmful to the US and indeed worlds population, they do not have our interests at heart at all. A few examples include terrible environmental degradation, the main contributers to the rise in Global Warming temperatures (a far greater threat than terrorism), massive increase of terrorism around the world due to our savage and holier than thou attitude with regards to foreign policy etc etc.

Look at all the terrible things we've done around the world all in the of either peace or stablity or fighting enemy A or warding off enemy B. It's resulted in greed, massive poverty, millions of deaths, instability, oppression you name it. So your quote about Winston Churchill does not bear fruit in the real world. Instead of looking through the eyes of some pampered millionaire politician (who wishes he was born an American), try and see it through the eyes of the average man, women and child who struggle everyday to make ends meet, who've lost a loved during war time, who can't get their voices heard because it's forbidden and can land them in jail, torture or worse death. This is the reality facing billions in this so called 'globalised' world we live in and this has to stop. The REAL democratic forces such as we've seen in Egypt are fighting for this and we've seen it happen before where a favoured dictator is overthrown (mass murderer Indonesian dictator Suharto anyone) and then suddenly when it seems impossible to support the favoured tyrant usually praised for stability and introducing neo economic liberal reform we abandon him (probably because the Military has- no dictator can survive without his military).The same horror stories we hear about Egypt was conjored up in Indonesia too (worlds largest muslim population now have a democratic say, shock horror!).

As for Nasser- not sure why your talking about him, I only broght him up to make a point that is it doesn't matter whether the Government is secular or a theocracy, what matters is whether its obidient. Nasser was a disobedient secular Arab nationlist so he wasn't our kind of guy. Saddam was our kind of guy during the 80's when the US took Iraq off the State Sponsors of Terrorism list (shows you how much that list means) and vetoed UN resolutions against him. And unsurprisingly Saddam committed his VERY worst atrocities when he was 'our kind of guy'. Didn't give a shit then, suddenly gave a shit in 2003.

About US military aid to Egypt....where US military aid goes...violence is usually increased tenfold. Israel, Yemen, Columbia, Pakistan...it's a nasty correlation. And exactly why does Egypt need $1 billion a year? To defend it's territory from the Muslim Brotherhood? Or to buy US fighter jets, tanks and IFVs (a kind of subsidy to US defence firms who are one of the most subsidised companies in the world)? A sort of bribe to keep peace with Israel and shut the hell up? I doubt there are any noble intentions. No point talking about what the Army would've been like if they had aid or no aid. Probably less well equipped and not as well trained, that's about it.

I agree the middle east has been in turmoil ever since the collapse of the Ottamon Empire and European Empires share a large responsibility. And did we have to overthrow Mosaddegh when he was democratically elected? Later on we would see Khomeinei....blowbacks a bitch.

Read the last paragraph and now read the below which you quoted.

"...is the country that will always do the right thing but only after trying everything else."

Do you still agree with it? Is it even true? ('will try everything else').

Wow, no sir, the Middle East was in Turmoil even before the US got there.

There is an old song:

"From the Hills of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli."

The US had to form a Marine Corps and a Navy to deal with the Musselmen Barbary states who were part of the Islamic Empire but showed and celebrated and even awarded rank for piracy. History does show that the Ottoman was at it's best a leech on the world. But I guess that's another topic.

Now I see why you thought what you thought about my original post, it's called projection. You thought that by me saying what I said the message is how you would of intended it. I said that I can't see why they would want to get rid of Hosni Mubarak that is not saying they should do as I say. You my friend have a knack for telling people what to do, now you are telling me I should stop seeing myself, my family, my values, my ideals, you and anyone else who enjoys democratic civilization and those who combat barbarism or unrequited servitude as the good guys.

"And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, do you see how far the termites have come and how long and well they have dined, when in a group of free-thinkers someone can stand up and say that the problem is western civilization and not the Islamic threat to it, that is how far the termites have come." -Hitch

Ha, I'm surprised you didn't bring up East Timor, usually Liberals tend to bring that up. East Timor is an interesting example and would prove your point of a US funded genocide.

But I said defend themselves so it could be from the Muslim Brotherhood or even Israel. This isn't a world without borders just yet sir, there are steps that must be taken or others will try to take it from you. If you live in the US I'm sure you wouldn't understand that unless Canada declared war on the US =P Or Mexico tried to take Texas...

Old Country is a bit different Western Europe has only just begun toss away imperialism.

The Kissinger model or Tricentralism is not designed around imperialism it assumes that their are 3 super powers and that each must maintain the other in check. It's flawed as is anything with Kissinger but do you have a better suggestion to replace this Machiavellian policy which sadly seems to work; there hasn’t been a nuclear war yet.

Lastly I don't believe you grasp the irony in Churchill's quote in the least bit.

Egypt is making huge steps in only 18 days, that's incredible.

Your pretty confusing with some of your statements. Let's try and stay on topic and not romanticise peoples plight with fanciful quotes.

1. Yes I acknowledge the Middle East has been in turmoil long before US involvement. This was evident in my previous post.

2. Not sure why your bringing up the barbary pirates? I'm sure Turkish nationalists would say (enter any empire here) was a leech on the world as they can't see their own crimes. See what I'm getting at?

3. I'm not telling you to not speak to your family. I am arguing you and your antiquated imperialist attitude towards the rest of the world and I argue such attitudes which are prevelent at the highest levels of our Governments contravene human rights, justice, fraternity, liberty, democracy and all these things which we over here at least in some measure take for granted.

4. I mentioned Suharto the genocidal billionaire dictator responsible for the deaths of hundres of thousands of so called 'communists' and East Timorese. All this done in your name to protect your freedom in some fantasy universe conjured up in the White House and Pentagon

5. The Egyptian Military doesn't need a $1 billion a year to defend itself against the the unarmed Muslim Brotherhood or terrorists. There are much smarter and cost effective ways to fight terrorism such as introducing democratic reform, eradicating poverty, education and good old fashion police/detective/intelligence work. The whole world needs to demilitarise unfortunately the West, Russia and Israel are arming themselves and everyone else to the teeth. We as a world spend more than 10 times as much on killing machines then on aid.

6. The war criminal Kissanger and his model of tricentralism (if it exists at all) is clearly not at work. The US dominated NATO expanded it's borders further East. The US seeks dominance, not a multi polar world. This is obvious in any circles. But it is suffering serious strategic and tactical set backs which is also evident the question is for how long or is it permanent?

Only a person who was romanticizing would use the word romanticize.

1. You didn't make that concession clear enough, my point was simple, even when they were the Ottoman they didn't contribute a single thing, they expanded in all directions and just about all of the credited achievements were the achievements of conquered peoples converted to Islam or were already in effect by those people before they were conquered. Hence why it's correct to use the word leech.

2. I don't know why you separated one and two but that isn't the point. Your right and the Turks could say the Dish did in fact run away with the spoon, doesn't make any of it fact. I could write a 500 page book on western accomplishments and the benefit they have  been to man-kind.

3."You need to stop thinking as if" I mean do you really need a 3rd party to show you that your lying at this point?  The rest of your callithump for this section will be ignored only because yet again you split the same topic up.

4. Oh, sorry didn't notice - once I see folks piling on the list of so called atrocities I skip over to the next paragraph. Believe it or not I've had all the atrocities listed for me, there is a book on it actually, the name slips my mind now. It's of all the wrong things the US has done.

4.1 - On East Timor I'll copy paste an old response I wrote on this arguing point:

"...that discourse from an American perspective about the deaths of those at 9/11 the immensity of the pain of hearing about the mass beheading of women in Iraq under Saddam Hussein has met the Left seemingly bereft of use with nothing to say. Then reminded that the left is the side that claims to have their finger on the pulse of humanity through logos, pathos and ethos and would have an answer to how we should react. Instead I'm slammed back by you on as an example of a leftist argument "well, what about East Timur?". These people attacked our culture, our secularism, our pluralism, attacked everything that we hold dear as far as our multicultural ethics. The indiscriminate attacks cost hundreds of Muslims their lives as well hundreds of people from every other nationality. With all of these things being as clear as day you would say "Well, what about East Timor?" or in another case "Well, what about Bosnia?" or in another case "Well about the Shah?" or in another case "Well what about the Atomic Bomb?"

When the planned genocide recorded and planned genocide of women in Iraq through mass beheading was known how did the left react?

'Well we have to wait and see because it's not clear.'

Wait and see for what? It's more than sniveling or cowardice those caitiffs are down right disgusting to try and evade an issue like that and will only work to summon historical censure.  

It would appear to me such evasiveness can only mean one thing, the person evading wants to pretend the issue never came up. They are just looking to fill the status quo.

If the zeitgeist of the left is to craft an egalitarian society then with the evidence as it is presented to this date gauging it's value then if the left was for whole sale I'd equally afford piss in a cup.

Well, what about East Timor, I think now more than ever since I've had a bit of Scotch and the internet at my finger tips I can attack this rotten tool. Did you know that item 3 of the Bin Laden manifesto has to deal with East Timor? Well time line is important here, the west had acknowledged East Timor’s independence in 1999 or some such, Bin Laden wrote his Manifesto after that and the third item deals with the west reversing it's position with East Timor. In other words undoing the ending of the Indonesian genocide, it's recognition with the UN and it's first election. Bin Laden said for this he will never forgive the west for taking Muslim land. The people of East Timor are  Christian by the way have been since it was a Portuguese colony.  By then Islam hadn't even become dominant in Indonesia until the 1600s where Christianity had already spread to that region at around 1300 to 1500 at the latest. (I couldn't find any sources on the date it became dominant.)But Christianity was there before the Portuguese.

East Timor as it turns out is one of the top 3 reasons Bin Laden decided to use civilian air crafts to kill more civilians. So again, what about East Timor?"

I think here's where I should use my Hitch quote again. But by now I would hope you have seen how far those termites have come for you to hold your position as a proper construct.

5. Oh, boy I said to protect it's sovereignty, you assume I speak only of the Islamic Brother Hood at this point your putting up strawmen either I believe a concession is in order here. You did it in (1) do it in 4. (Unless you honestly believe Egypt doesn't need an equipped standing Army and hasn't needed one for the last 20 years.)

6. Tri-centralism is a word from Noam used to describe Kissengers methods it's more common to call it Trilateralism, it's the best way to describe it I think. But since the Soviets are gone Kissingers model is out the window. Those termites have really fed well I see, if your that type you can respond in whatever insulting way you want to, I won't respond at this point I don't think there is much else to say.

Actually, the US already had established itself and monopolized the oil through ARAMCO before 1976. But it isn't so black and white. Anyway good night.