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im atheist too, i don´t like relegions at all. but i repect others believes.



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I believe in God. Their are crazier things that are true. like the fact that anything exists at all.



GameOver22 said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Very few atheists make a positive claim that God doesn't exist. Functionally everyone in the world is an agnostic since they're without knowledge. That includes theists.

I however don't define myself by the fact that I can't positively prove that God doesn't exist completely and cannot know either way. Thats absurd. Firslty because no-one applies such thinking to things like fairies, which seems to be a form of special pleading only really applied in the theistic realm, and secondly because I think theistic claims can be looked into. God strikes houses with lightning because we sin? Nah, its a natural process that can largely be predicted, doesn't require God to work (gotta love a bit of razor action) and even if God was doing it, it can be easily stopped with lighting rods (what a weak God, why worship it?).

The claim God exists is made by theists. There is no evidence, thus I don't believe in it. I have no burden of proof because my belief is a negative. There is nothing illogical about being an atheist. To be correct, I would say I'm an agnostic atheist as is pretty much everyone. But the same would thus have to be said about thiests aswell. Ever heard a person call themselves an agnostic Christian? I doubt it (of course this being the internet I'm sure groups exist).

I just fall on the side of the fence that thinks that God probably doesn't eixst. And if we must look at the evidence, the God of the Gaps is an ever shrinking one. There is certainly more evidnece to say that God doesn't exist then does (or atleast if a God does exist, he's decidenly non interventionest and probably non-anthropic). But again, I'm not making the claim, I'm just rejecting the claim by theists because such an extraordinary claim should have extraordinary evidence.

I'm interested in what a person thinks, not some obsession over knowledge (which is rarely applied anywhere else) or the use of the word to reduce social stigma (and such agnostics do exist).

And please, don't conflate anti-theism with atheism.

Nice post. The only thing I take exception to is your first section. By "positve claim", do you mean 100% certainty? If thats what you mean, you are correct that atheists do not claim to be 100% certain that God does not exist. However, everyone is not an agnostic because they are without knowledge. Knowledge does not need to be 100% certain, and it seems you allude to this in your second section. Point is, when people say, "I know God does not exist", they are not claiming to be 100% certain that God does not exist. Just as an example, scientific laws are considered knowledge, but they are not considered certain knowledge because they rely on induction and inference.

Agreed.

I think I simply overplayed the initial thrust of my post. Since the rest of my post contradicts it. I definetely lean towards the latter and was simply making the point that agnosticism is in many ways a useless term since it could under certain definitions apply to everyone. Not only that but it isn't really applied elsewhere hence my point about it being some sort of special pleading that in general only seems to be applied in the theism debate.



highwaystar101 said:
AussieGecko said:

ooooooooh i love how the people that believe science without question. Like how we were guaranteed the oldest human was 100k years, then going on and going on and now we are up to 2 million.

Oh and raptors, guess what they have feathers, look at jurassic park, hell the lost world it was only recently they realised that they had feathers. Science is a bunch of theories until proven otherwise, and even then its not proven. It is simply a new discovery.

You can not simply criticise religion "theories" if you are trying to use science "theories" in defence.

Bold - 

And that's exactly why science works so well. Science isn't a set series of ideas, that are forever unchanging and never to be questioned. Science will always adapt to the new evidence, and with every generation of scientists that passes the theory will be more correct than it was before.

The argument you use to ridicule science is exactly the same reason why it works so well. All it does it expose a certain mindset you have.

Also, if people "believed" science without question like you claim, then science wouldn't work the way it does. Science is built on scepticism and enquiry.

Italics - 

As for your last part, religious theories and scientific theories are two completely separate things.

Scientific theories are explanations of phenomena based on facts and evidence, when new facts come along, the theory changes to fit. They are not the same as religious theories.

 

Facts used to be whole truths I thought, now they are something that can be simply disproved down the road. Why cant religion be fact then. It hasnt been disproved so it should be fact till it is? Is that not the way of thinking of science?



 

Bet with Conegamer and Doobie_wop 

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AussieGecko said:
highwaystar101 said:
AussieGecko said:

ooooooooh i love how the people that believe science without question. Like how we were guaranteed the oldest human was 100k years, then going on and going on and now we are up to 2 million.

Oh and raptors, guess what they have feathers, look at jurassic park, hell the lost world it was only recently they realised that they had feathers. Science is a bunch of theories until proven otherwise, and even then its not proven. It is simply a new discovery.

You can not simply criticise religion "theories" if you are trying to use science "theories" in defence.

Bold - 

And that's exactly why science works so well. Science isn't a set series of ideas, that are forever unchanging and never to be questioned. Science will always adapt to the new evidence, and with every generation of scientists that passes the theory will be more correct than it was before.

The argument you use to ridicule science is exactly the same reason why it works so well. All it does it expose a certain mindset you have.

Also, if people "believed" science without question like you claim, then science wouldn't work the way it does. Science is built on scepticism and enquiry.

Italics - 

As for your last part, religious theories and scientific theories are two completely separate things.

Scientific theories are explanations of phenomena based on facts and evidence, when new facts come along, the theory changes to fit. They are not the same as religious theories.

 

Facts used to be whole truths I thought, now they are something that can be simply disproved down the road. Why cant religion be fact then. It hasnt been disproved so it should be fact till it is? Is that not the way of thinking of science?


Religion cannot be treated like science because of the inherently impossible nature of it all. It is philosphy rather and science and entirely urelated. Religion should not have "theories", the word of a diety should very much remain the word of diety and not subject to theorizing and interpretation (which is partly what makes the bible a useless point of reference for mostly anything save for outdated philosophical and moral tidbits).

God and religion was never made (I say made because I truthfully believe that god was made by man and not the other way around) to be tested and falsified, that's part of the genius (so to speak) of it; can't be proved and can't be disproved. "Gods works in mysterious ways" etc.



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sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:

I said it to get something off my chest before it even got on my chest

Smart move! You fulfill the German stereotype of being efficient.


Except that i am not German



AussieGecko said:
highwaystar101 said:

Bold - 

And that's exactly why science works so well. Science isn't a set series of ideas, that are forever unchanging and never to be questioned. Science will always adapt to the new evidence, and with every generation of scientists that passes the theory will be more correct than it was before.

The argument you use to ridicule science is exactly the same reason why it works so well. All it does it expose a certain mindset you have.

Also, if people "believed" science without question like you claim, then science wouldn't work the way it does. Science is built on scepticism and enquiry.

Italics - 

As for your last part, religious theories and scientific theories are two completely separate things.

Scientific theories are explanations of phenomena based on facts and evidence, when new facts come along, the theory changes to fit. They are not the same as religious theories.

 

Facts used to be whole truths I thought, now they are something that can be simply disproved down the road. Why cant religion be fact then. It hasnt been disproved so it should be fact till it is? Is that not the way of thinking of science?

 

Theories change. Facts don't (if they are correct).

New facts are discovered and are used to further refine the theory. If a fact contradicts a theory, then the theory must be adapted.

Surely you understand the ordering with facts and theories? I mean, I even outright explained it in my previous post.

 

Anyway. Away from the diversion and onto the beef...

What are these religious facts? and why do you think they should be considered in the same way as scientific facts?

Scientific theories are formed from facts, and with the theory predictions can be made about a phenomena, which will then be tested. We can do this in science for pretty much any theory (yes, even evolution, but I'm not getting into an evolution debate).

This is what gives a theory its falsifiability.

If the prediction disagrees with the theory, then we must rethink our theory using the current facts in such a way that the predictions work when tested. If our experiments line up with the predictions, then we know the theory works (as well as we are able to understand it of course).

What I would like to know is what facts are given by religion that can be used to form a testable and falsifiable theory?

If no such theory can be formed from the religious facts, then so called religious facts cannot be considered in the same way that scientific facts are.



pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:

I said it to get something off my chest before it even got on my chest

Smart move! You fulfill the German stereotype of being efficient.


Except that i am not German

Austrian?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:

I said it to get something off my chest before it even got on my chest

Smart move! You fulfill the German stereotype of being efficient.


Except that i am not German

Austrian?

no



pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:

I said it to get something off my chest before it even got on my chest

Smart move! You fulfill the German stereotype of being efficient.


Except that i am not German

Austrian?

no

Well I see you're banned, so I guess I'll never know ... at least not 'till the 20th.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)