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FaRmLaNd on 09 December 2010
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GameOver22 said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Very few atheists make a positive claim that God doesn't exist. Functionally everyone in the world is an agnostic since they're without knowledge. That includes theists.

I however don't define myself by the fact that I can't positively prove that God doesn't exist completely and cannot know either way. Thats absurd. Firslty because no-one applies such thinking to things like fairies, which seems to be a form of special pleading only really applied in the theistic realm, and secondly because I think theistic claims can be looked into. God strikes houses with lightning because we sin? Nah, its a natural process that can largely be predicted, doesn't require God to work (gotta love a bit of razor action) and even if God was doing it, it can be easily stopped with lighting rods (what a weak God, why worship it?).

The claim God exists is made by theists. There is no evidence, thus I don't believe in it. I have no burden of proof because my belief is a negative. There is nothing illogical about being an atheist. To be correct, I would say I'm an agnostic atheist as is pretty much everyone. But the same would thus have to be said about thiests aswell. Ever heard a person call themselves an agnostic Christian? I doubt it (of course this being the internet I'm sure groups exist).

I just fall on the side of the fence that thinks that God probably doesn't eixst. And if we must look at the evidence, the God of the Gaps is an ever shrinking one. There is certainly more evidnece to say that God doesn't exist then does (or atleast if a God does exist, he's decidenly non interventionest and probably non-anthropic). But again, I'm not making the claim, I'm just rejecting the claim by theists because such an extraordinary claim should have extraordinary evidence.

I'm interested in what a person thinks, not some obsession over knowledge (which is rarely applied anywhere else) or the use of the word to reduce social stigma (and such agnostics do exist).

And please, don't conflate anti-theism with atheism.

Nice post. The only thing I take exception to is your first section. By "positve claim", do you mean 100% certainty? If thats what you mean, you are correct that atheists do not claim to be 100% certain that God does not exist. However, everyone is not an agnostic because they are without knowledge. Knowledge does not need to be 100% certain, and it seems you allude to this in your second section. Point is, when people say, "I know God does not exist", they are not claiming to be 100% certain that God does not exist. Just as an example, scientific laws are considered knowledge, but they are not considered certain knowledge because they rely on induction and inference.

Agreed.

I think I simply overplayed the initial thrust of my post. Since the rest of my post contradicts it. I definetely lean towards the latter and was simply making the point that agnosticism is in many ways a useless term since it could under certain definitions apply to everyone. Not only that but it isn't really applied elsewhere hence my point about it being some sort of special pleading that in general only seems to be applied in the theism debate.