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Forums - Gaming Discussion - What does PSP2 need to compete against 3DS?

Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
jarrod said:

What I mean by "this" is that PSP1 and PSP2 find themselves entering very different markets, with very different industries, and a very different Sony at the helm.  PSP1 had a LOT going in it's favor that's gone today...

agree

MoHun basically created the current PSP marketplace in Japan that exists today, almost single handedly.  It's something few games can really claim to have done for a system before, the only things even comparable are Super Mario Bros. rocketing the Famicom to stardom and Pokemon fully reviving the Game Boy from near death.  Other games sold on those systems too.... if PSP2 loses MH though, it'd be like if GBA had lost Pokemon or SFC losing Mario.  It'd be a HUGE impediment to the successor platform.

i know some games have really done alot for it their systems

but MH is definetly not it,it surely sold well but not anywhere near a game that just pockets the HW sales

MH is still nowhere near Pokemon,mario

you can compare it to DQ9 kind of thing but far aways from the elite's like pokemon,mario,etc

Oh, and nice to see you've narrowed down to "1st year and half".  Convenient how that works for PSP, yet against LR. ;)

at the start of 2006,PSP piracy was already over the place.

it was the starting of the downward spiral for SW but HW stayed up for a bit time and then HW too went downhill and SW just dropped dead

if Locorocco was a 2004 or 2005 release then it would still have some impact but still it is nowher near ninty imitate and just one or few games doesn't prove anything and locorroco was never an attempt at biggies like pokemon,mario

 


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jarrod on 05 November 2010
darkknightkryta said:
jarrod said:
darkknightkryta said:
jarrod said:
darkknightkryta said:


More difficult than the PSP 1?  And note I don't necessarily mean ports from the 3DS I mean the same franchise but different games.  Kingdom Hearts for instance, the DS got a Kingdom Hearts game and the PSP got a Kingdom Hearts game.  All these titles anounced on the 3DS could have a counter part on the PSP and it won't be a hard sell considering how many great games are coming to the PSP despite piracy and lack on interest.

Kingdom Hearts makes for an interesting example actually... because while DS and PSP both saw KH games, they weren't exactly equal.  PSP got a full fledged, console level KH, with new worlds and characters, developed internally over several years.  DS got a quick, outsourced spinoff, developed in under a year, and with entirely recycled content.  And then DS got a remake of a mobile game, also outsourced, also made in under a year.

And the more interesting thing on 3DS, is that the internal PSP team has moved to it and is making the KH 3DS game, which Nomura promises to be another "full fledged" entry, to the point where he even said it could be mistaken for KH3.  So... where exactly does this leave PSP2 now?  People saying PSP2 can get these same games aren't looking deep enough, the same teams that made these sorts of franchises on PSP (KH, MGS, etc) have already moved to 3DS.  They also didn't make these games on DS.  If these teams are on 3DS, yet were only on PSP previously, where does that leave PSP2 then?

What if Nomura feels like putting Kingdom Hearts 3 on the PSP 2?  Or what if Nomura comes with an idea that works well with what the PSP 2 might offer?  You make it sound like that's not gonna happen and it could very well happen.  Another thing the main Kingdom Hearts team is not working on the 3DS game, the whole reason why Kingdom Hearts 3 is probably not gonna be released this generation is because the main team is working on Final Fantasy Vs XIII and if my estimates are right, that game's 3 years off.

Saying "anything could happen" is a pretty weak position to argue from.  Obviously no one can say with certainty that KH3 on PSP2 is impossible... but come on.  Look at the situation today, look at the current handheld market, look at where companies are focusing and pledging support.  It's not hard to make a pretty good, rather educated guess at this, and point out what the likelihoods are going to be.

If Nomrua "feels like putting Kingdom Hearts 3 on the PSP 2", rest assured Wada and Disney will be there to slap him back into reality...

Did they when he put Birth by Sleep on the PSP?  A game that uses no recycled assets other than music.  Every cutscene is voiced, and the graphics are on par with the PS2 games.  Has CGI graphics that were made with expensive super computers.  On a console that has been hit with piracy worse than the DS, PS2, Wii, 360, PSX, GC, and X-Box.  And Nomura will get slapped back to reality for wanting a portable Kingdom Hearts on a PSP 2?  And saying anything can happen would be a weak position if history hasn't shown its very possible.

BBS was put on PSP in 2005... y'know, back when everyone still thought PSP was going to drive Nintendo into 3rd party publishing.  Again, attitudes are... well, they're different today.

Also, PSP piracy isn't worse than PS1 (not even close), PS2, and probably not even worse than DS.

There's historical precedent for "anything can happen".  And here I though your argument couldn't get any more meaningless or flimsy? :P 



Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
jarrod said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:
Galaki said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

because of piracy


Yeah, piracy killed PSP the same way it killed DS and Xbox 360. Damn pirates.


not really

PSP piracy is very different from DS,360.

there are alot of ways the PSP can be pirated on and alot doesn't even require modding it like it is necessary on 360,DS

and modding items are banned in many countries so 360 and DS got their asses saved but PSP which had ways to be pirated on without modding,it got slaughtered

and never compare handheld piracy with console piracy,it is very different and the online features save the console piracy even more

Uh, no mods are required to pirate games on a DS.  Hell, you don't even have to flash firmware (which is also "modding" btw) like you do with PSP.  

Hell, you don't even need a DS to pirate and play DS games, you just emulate the system.  Unlike PSP piracy, which requires a hardware purchase...


don't get emulation in with piracy,its not what we are discussing

and for DS piracy i wasn't talking about total modding but the R4 cards with DS

 

PSP piracy is just hookup the usb and copy games

 

and the fact that DS market is young  so they don't know so much about it and normally go and buy games or their parents buy it

 

PSP crowd is 18-35 years which we know what they do with their PSP's

jarrod said:

 

Also, PSP piracy isn't worse than PS1 (not even close), PS2, and probably not even worse than DS.

 

bullshit

 

don't just go and compare that PS2,PS1 games were pirated these many times

 

go and check the ratio between purchase and he piracted games then you will know how bad it is



jarrod on 05 November 2010
Solid_Snake4RD said:
jarrod said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:
Galaki said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

because of piracy


Yeah, piracy killed PSP the same way it killed DS and Xbox 360. Damn pirates.


not really

PSP piracy is very different from DS,360.

there are alot of ways the PSP can be pirated on and alot doesn't even require modding it like it is necessary on 360,DS

and modding items are banned in many countries so 360 and DS got their asses saved but PSP which had ways to be pirated on without modding,it got slaughtered

and never compare handheld piracy with console piracy,it is very different and the online features save the console piracy even more

Uh, no mods are required to pirate games on a DS.  Hell, you don't even have to flash firmware (which is also "modding" btw) like you do with PSP.  

Hell, you don't even need a DS to pirate and play DS games, you just emulate the system.  Unlike PSP piracy, which requires a hardware purchase...


don't get emulation in with piracy,its not what we are discussing

and for DS piracy i wasn't talking about total modding but the R4 cards with DS

 

PSP piracy is just hookup the usb and copy games

 

and the fact that DS market is young  so they don't know so much about it and normally go and buy games or their parents buy it

 

PSP crowd is 18-35 years which we know what they do with their PSP's

An R4 card isn't modding.  Flashing firmware is modding, and it's required for PSP piracy.  

Emulation itself isn't inherently piracy, but it can (and often is) be used for it.  At least with DS (or PS2/Wii).  People are pirating from these systems without even owning these systems.  And frankly, it's easier than PSP piracy.

Beyond that, pirated DS games from Asia are ubiquitous, and often sold as new (this is/was also true for Famicom, PlayStation, etc).  This is something that's not really an issue for PSP, at least not on a comparable scale.

And the PSP crowd is largely teenagers at this point, which is actually reflective of their marketing.  Almost every kid I see on the subway with a DS has some sort of flashcard sticking out it though.



jarrod on 05 November 2010

Solid_Snake4RD said:

 bullshit

 

don't just go and compare that PS2,PS1 games were pirated these many times

 

go and check the ratio between purchase and he piracted games then you will know how bad it is

Ratio arguments inherently favor smaller bases.  It's like arguing Saturn was more heavily pirated than PS1, since it didn't have as many legitimate game sales.  It's not exactly correct in the wider context, and really, we don't know exactly how many "copies" are pirated for a direct comparison.

In terms of ratio though, either PSP or Dreamcast are probably the worst off, yeah. But ratio means little, a higher ratio or piracy doesn't mean more piracy (just as a higher ratio of sales doesn't mean more sales).  Systems like PS1, PS2, DS and even Xbox or N64 generally had a decent mainstream audience who still legitimately bought games, even though piracy was common on ALL those systems during their lifecycles.  PSP has that to an extent too in Japan yet.



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kafar on 05 November 2010

<jk>

psp2 has to do everything :D

</jk>

OK. it's not entirely a jk. psp2 has to do a lot to beat the 3d hype of 3ds. 3ds is very expensive. so to win, psp2 has to offer better value with lower or similar price point. it will have no chance if the introductory price is higher than 3ds. For tech inovations, graphics is not important for handheld devices. the input control method however is the key. I'm happy that psp2 will get dual anolog stick. it's on the right direction. I doubt how userful the touch pad will be for games. maybe it as a mouse control will be used by a lot of other applications.

other than those, psp2 needs new ip specificlly designed for psp2 not just ports from hd consoles. in this way, there is a chance that for people buy into 3d hype they will buy both 3ds and psp2. And they may buy psp2 first if psp2 has lower entry price point. this will be the winning strategy for psp2 i believe.



Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
jarrod said:

An R4 card isn't modding.  Flashing firmware is modding, and it's required for PSP piracy.  

Emulation itself isn't inherently piracy, but it can (and often is) be used for it.  At least with DS (or PS2/Wii).  People are pirating from these systems without even owning these systems.  And frankly, it's easier than PSP piracy.

Beyond that, pirated DS games from Asia are ubiquitous, and often sold as new (this is/was also true for Famicom, PlayStation, etc).  This is something that's not really an issue for PSP, at least not on a comparable scale.

And the PSP crowd is largely teenagers at this point, which is actually reflective of their marketing.  Almost every kid I see on the subway with a DS has some sort of flashcard sticking out it though.


i know R4 isn't modding and i put it in wrong way of saying

the main point was that PSP doesn't need an external parts to mod PSP

 

just keep the emulation part out,we are not considering it.people will continue to emulate games but it is minor and its not in the userbase so we aren't counting it.just leave it out

PSP crowd is largely teenage at thsi point?

so the older userbase just dissaparead and PSP crowrd is in late teens,it has nothing to do with the recent marketing

the recent marketing is for them to pull the entering tweens and younger crowd like the DS

 

this is exactly what you always do,bring in irrelevant debate and which doesn't even make sense.like the recent marketing is for PSP to get the newer userbase not the existing one

 

just because every kid on your subway has a flash card sticking out doesn't mean its the same,indication:just see the sales chart



Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
jarrod said:

Solid_Snake4RD said:

 bullshit

 

don't just go and compare that PS2,PS1 games were pirated these many times

 

go and check the ratio between purchase and he piracted games then you will know how bad it is

Ratio arguments inherently favor smaller bases.  It's like arguing Saturn was more heavily pirated than PS1, since it didn't have as many legitimate game sales.  It's not exactly correct in the wider context, and really, we don't know exactly how many "copies" are pirated for a direct comparison.

In terms of ratio though, either PSP or Dreamcast are probably the worst off, yeah. But ratio means little, a higher ratio or piracy doesn't mean more piracy (just as a higher ratio of sales doesn't mean more sales).  Systems like PS1, PS2, DS and even Xbox or N64 generally had a decent mainstream audience who still legitimately bought games, even though piracy was common on ALL those systems during their lifecycles.  PSP has that to an extent too in Japan yet.


actually the some torrent websites put out lists every year and PSP games are there

 

and if not that ratio,you can just look at the HW and SW sales Shipped sales ratio from the last few years.its nowhere near what was on the PS1,PS2

just admit it.

 

nobody is saying PSP would have been number 1 without piracy but the point is that it would be nowhere near where it has gone down now wihtout it



jarrod on 05 November 2010
Solid_Snake4RD said:
jarrod said:

An R4 card isn't modding.  Flashing firmware is modding, and it's required for PSP piracy.  

Emulation itself isn't inherently piracy, but it can (and often is) be used for it.  At least with DS (or PS2/Wii).  People are pirating from these systems without even owning these systems.  And frankly, it's easier than PSP piracy.

Beyond that, pirated DS games from Asia are ubiquitous, and often sold as new (this is/was also true for Famicom, PlayStation, etc).  This is something that's not really an issue for PSP, at least not on a comparable scale.

And the PSP crowd is largely teenagers at this point, which is actually reflective of their marketing.  Almost every kid I see on the subway with a DS has some sort of flashcard sticking out it though.


i know R4 isn't modding and i put it in wrong way of saying

the main point was that PSP doesn't need an external parts to mod PSP

 

just keep the emulation part out,we are not considering it.people will continue to emulate games but it is minor and its not in the userbase so we aren't counting it.just leave it out

PSP crowd is largely teenage at thsi point?

so the older userbase just dissaparead and PSP crowrd is in late teens,it has nothing to do with the recent marketing

the recent marketing is for them to pull the entering tweens and younger crowd like the DS

 

this is exactly what you always do,bring in irrelevant debate and which doesn't even make sense.like the recent marketing is for PSP to get the newer userbase not the existing one

 

just because every kid on your subway has a flash card sticking out doesn't mean its the same,indication:just see the sales chart


Sales charts?  DS software has already bottomed out in Europe, there's articles everywhere in the press about flashcard (or Magicons in Japan)... I don't think you're really aware of how prevalent DS piracy really is.  It's everywhere, and reminds me a lot of the late term PS1 era (where *everyone* I knew had a modded PSX... me included. :x).  Actually, it's getting pretty bad for Wii too... the only easily pirated system that seems at all insulated is 360, probably thanks to fear of XBL banning.

And the point with emulation, it shows that DS piracy is even easier and less costly than PSP piracy.  You literally don't need any "external parts", not an R4, not a PSP, just your PC.

And when I was talking "teens" I was thinking mainly Japan, sorry I should've made that clear.  There it's (generally) teens have PSP, kids have DS.  In the west, it's more like kids have DS, no one has PSP (lol).



jarrod on 05 November 2010
Solid_Snake4RD said:
jarrod said:

Solid_Snake4RD said:

 bullshit

 

don't just go and compare that PS2,PS1 games were pirated these many times

 

go and check the ratio between purchase and he piracted games then you will know how bad it is

Ratio arguments inherently favor smaller bases.  It's like arguing Saturn was more heavily pirated than PS1, since it didn't have as many legitimate game sales.  It's not exactly correct in the wider context, and really, we don't know exactly how many "copies" are pirated for a direct comparison.

In terms of ratio though, either PSP or Dreamcast are probably the worst off, yeah. But ratio means little, a higher ratio or piracy doesn't mean more piracy (just as a higher ratio of sales doesn't mean more sales).  Systems like PS1, PS2, DS and even Xbox or N64 generally had a decent mainstream audience who still legitimately bought games, even though piracy was common on ALL those systems during their lifecycles.  PSP has that to an extent too in Japan yet.


actually the some torrent websites put out lists every year and PSP games are there

 

and if not that ratio,you can just look at the HW and SW sales Shipped sales ratio from the last few years.its nowhere near what was on the PS1,PS2

just admit it.

 

nobody is saying PSP would have been number 1 without piracy but the point is that it would be nowhere near where it has gone down now wihtout it

Right and Comgnet put out sales and preorder figures all the time... how do those compare to the overall JP market again?  You can't take just one slice of data (ie: a couple torrent sites) and say that's what things are like everywhere...

Also, part of PSP's higher hardware likely has something to do with actually needing the hardware to pirate games.  I know you want to pretend emulation doesn't exist, but it does, and PS1, PS2 and DS were all easily emulated during their lifecycles... if you always needed those systems themselves to pirate games, then their hardware sales probably would've been higher too.  In fact, a strong case can be made that piracy helps PSP hardware sales...