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Forums - Gaming Discussion - What does PSP2 need to compete against 3DS?

Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
jarrod said:

PSP made a LOT of headway on Sony's reputation at the time, and on the factors going into the handheld war.  I mean, at that point Sony was the undisputed leader in gaming, had the best selling system in history under their belt, had almost all the biggest games on their systems, and was coming into the hardheld market (Nintendo's last area of real success) with a sleek PS2 level, $200, disc based wonder that was going up against Nintendo's weird, ugly little, cobbled together, two screened, cart based, handheld N64.  We had Sony's PR promises of lifting us out of the "Handheld ghetto", we had PS2 quality games like a FFVII prequel and a full sized GTA, we had Hollywood movies... everyone thought Nintendo was going to get massacred. 

Looking at where Sony sits today, where PSP sits today, it's a world of difference.  And that, chiefly, if why PSP2 has a much tougher road ahead of it than it's predecessor got.

 

 

As far as MoHun, it's pretty much the only reason PSP's at all successful it's one decent market today (Japan).  PSP2 losing that would be like a Nintendo handheld losing Pokemon, it'd be detrimental to the system.  If Nintendo snags MoHun for 3DS, it's about as close to fatal blow as we've ever seen in videogames.

and what do you mean by this???????????????????

this isn't the stage for telling history

if MH is the only reason then why so many other titles have consistently pushed PSP HW in japan and so many other games have sold well

 

jarrod said:

Yeah, I guess I never understand anything.  But I understand what a pyrrhic victory is.  Do you? ;)

I also understand how royalty structures work, as well as sunk R&D. The idea that SEL is "responsible" for SCE's losses is laughable, especially given SCE traditionally offloaded most of their heavy R&D costs onto SEL in the past (EE, CELL, etc).  If anything SEL usually holds SCE up (though that all changed when Kutaragi was ousted).  SCE's losses are directly due to delivering an overengineered, overbudget,  overpriced, console, and delivering it a full year after their closest competitor. Their losses are due to miscalculation, to short sightedness, to hubris... not to due to someone else.

PSP didn't even take off in Japan until after Locoroco released (and it never really took off anywhere else).  You even said earlier PSP had good software sales it's first two years, which is when LR1 released... so which is it?  You need to get your timelines in order, because you're saying directly opposing things and contradicting yourself here.

And let's be clear, I'm not the one who trotted out other companies games when talking about what "Sony does best".  You did.  Personally, I think Sony can rest on their own games pretty well.


keep on going,your story telling doesn't come near to what we are debating

PSP did take off very well the first year and a half and.it was still selling well after that,not DS well but very good and then it began down.

sony does best shouldn't just be for what they make but what they do for their platform.so just because they try to bring quality third party titles to their platform doesn't mean they don't contribute to it,it their decision about what type of games come to PSP and what market they want to target to.they wer targeting the mature crowd not like you said just trying to imitate ninty and bring up this debate that challenging ninty in its own field



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xeroxm3 on 05 November 2010
darkknightkryta said:
jarrod said:
darkknightkryta said:


More difficult than the PSP 1?  And note I don't necessarily mean ports from the 3DS I mean the same franchise but different games.  Kingdom Hearts for instance, the DS got a Kingdom Hearts game and the PSP got a Kingdom Hearts game.  All these titles anounced on the 3DS could have a counter part on the PSP and it won't be a hard sell considering how many great games are coming to the PSP despite piracy and lack on interest.

Kingdom Hearts makes for an interesting example actually... because while DS and PSP both saw KH games, they weren't exactly equal.  PSP got a full fledged, console level KH, with new worlds and characters, developed internally over several years.  DS got a quick, outsourced spinoff, developed in under a year, and with entirely recycled content.  And then DS got a remake of a mobile game, also outsourced, also made in under a year.

And the more interesting thing on 3DS, is that the internal PSP team has moved to it and is making the KH 3DS game, which Nomura promises to be another "full fledged" entry, to the point where he even said it could be mistaken for KH3.  So... where exactly does this leave PSP2 now?  People saying PSP2 can get these same games aren't looking deep enough, the same teams that made these sorts of franchises on PSP (KH, MGS, etc) have already moved to 3DS.  They also didn't make these games on DS.  If these teams are on 3DS, yet were only on PSP previously, where does that leave PSP2 then?

What if Nomura feels like putting Kingdom Hearts 3 on the PSP 2?  Or what if Nomura comes with an idea that works well with what the PSP 2 might offer?  You make it sound like that's not gonna happen and it could very well happen.  Another thing the main Kingdom Hearts team is not working on the 3DS game, the whole reason why Kingdom Hearts 3 is probably not gonna be released this generation is because the main team is working on Final Fantasy Vs XIII and if my estimates are right, that game's 3 years off.

Do not underestimate how much these devs / publishers want to capitalize on the 3DS from the start this time around. Everyone wrote off the DS and Wii even before they were released and they paid for it. No one wants to make the same mistake this time which is why the 3DS is getting such amazing support from the offset. The PSP2 could very well be a success, but it's not going to get the huge benefit of the doubt the first PSP got that's for sure.



Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
Galaki said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

because of piracy


Yeah, piracy killed PSP the same way it killed DS and Xbox 360. Damn pirates.


not really

PSP piracy is very different from DS,360.

there are alot of ways the PSP can be pirated on and alot doesn't even require modding it like it is necessary on 360,DS

and modding items are banned in many countries so 360 and DS got their asses saved but PSP which had ways to be pirated on without modding,it got slaughtered

and never compare handheld piracy with console piracy,it is very different and the online features save the console piracy even more



xeroxm3 on 05 November 2010
ElGranCabeza said:
jarrod said:
ElGranCabeza said:


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thanks for the laugh.

I'm serious! :/

 

Just wait for the UE3 announcement...

PSP2 is DOA in the west. UE3 is already up and running on iOS and I won't be surprised if it's ported to Droid in the future. RAGE is also on the iOS and already confirmed to be coming to Droid. It is the exact same reason why WM7 will struggle, iOS and Droid are too far ahead of the game right now. 

The only way the PSP2 can have any type of success in the West is if SCE moneyhatz Epic, R*, EA, Bethesda, Activision, etc to put games like Gears of War, GTA SAS, Mass Effect, Fallout, Oblivion, Call of Duty, Bioshock, etc on the machine. It'll be much easier for the PSP2 to succeed in Japan as SCE will only really have to moneyhat Capcom there.

Regardless, I think the PSP2 is fucked, the 3DS is gonna kill it with fire. BTW, the 3DS might not even have as easy a road to the top as I previously thought; most people are really into smartphones and tablets nowadays, including kids and teenagers. The 3DS SW will be compelling enough to get people to buy it, but I wonder if Little Johnny will ask Santa for a 3DS or an iphone 4G next Christmas.

I don't really think a downloadable games based handheld is ready to dominate the market yet. They still need to make advances in storage medium and wireless tech before devs can have the same amount of freedom with their games. We're getting awfully close to when it's possible though and I'm guessing the gen after next is when we'll be downloading all of our games.



darkknightkryta on 05 November 2010
xeroxm3 said:
darkknightkryta said:
jarrod said:
darkknightkryta said:


More difficult than the PSP 1?  And note I don't necessarily mean ports from the 3DS I mean the same franchise but different games.  Kingdom Hearts for instance, the DS got a Kingdom Hearts game and the PSP got a Kingdom Hearts game.  All these titles anounced on the 3DS could have a counter part on the PSP and it won't be a hard sell considering how many great games are coming to the PSP despite piracy and lack on interest.

Kingdom Hearts makes for an interesting example actually... because while DS and PSP both saw KH games, they weren't exactly equal.  PSP got a full fledged, console level KH, with new worlds and characters, developed internally over several years.  DS got a quick, outsourced spinoff, developed in under a year, and with entirely recycled content.  And then DS got a remake of a mobile game, also outsourced, also made in under a year.

And the more interesting thing on 3DS, is that the internal PSP team has moved to it and is making the KH 3DS game, which Nomura promises to be another "full fledged" entry, to the point where he even said it could be mistaken for KH3.  So... where exactly does this leave PSP2 now?  People saying PSP2 can get these same games aren't looking deep enough, the same teams that made these sorts of franchises on PSP (KH, MGS, etc) have already moved to 3DS.  They also didn't make these games on DS.  If these teams are on 3DS, yet were only on PSP previously, where does that leave PSP2 then?

What if Nomura feels like putting Kingdom Hearts 3 on the PSP 2?  Or what if Nomura comes with an idea that works well with what the PSP 2 might offer?  You make it sound like that's not gonna happen and it could very well happen.  Another thing the main Kingdom Hearts team is not working on the 3DS game, the whole reason why Kingdom Hearts 3 is probably not gonna be released this generation is because the main team is working on Final Fantasy Vs XIII and if my estimates are right, that game's 3 years off.

Do not underestimate how much these devs / publishers want to capitalize on the 3DS from the start this time around. Everyone wrote off the DS and Wii even before they were released and they paid for it. No one wants to make the same mistake this time which is why the 3DS is getting such amazing support from the offset. The PSP2 could very well be a success, but it's not going to get the huge benefit of the doubt the first PSP got that's for sure.

Who wrote off the DS?  And I'm not saying devs are going to put their best resources into the PSP 2, but to assume that just because the 3DS is getting support that the PSP 2 isn't going to is just stupid.



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Grimes on 05 November 2010

If the PSP2 goes Android, piracy is only going to be worse. The piracy rate is close to 97% in Asia for Android. Sony won't be able to close holes either because they don't control the OS.



Anyone can guess. It takes no effort to throw out lots of predictions and have some of them be correct. You are not and wiser or better for having your guesses be right. Even a blind man can hit the bullseye.

xeroxm3 on 05 November 2010
darkknightkryta said:
xeroxm3 said:
darkknightkryta said:
jarrod said:
darkknightkryta said:


More difficult than the PSP 1?  And note I don't necessarily mean ports from the 3DS I mean the same franchise but different games.  Kingdom Hearts for instance, the DS got a Kingdom Hearts game and the PSP got a Kingdom Hearts game.  All these titles anounced on the 3DS could have a counter part on the PSP and it won't be a hard sell considering how many great games are coming to the PSP despite piracy and lack on interest.

Kingdom Hearts makes for an interesting example actually... because while DS and PSP both saw KH games, they weren't exactly equal.  PSP got a full fledged, console level KH, with new worlds and characters, developed internally over several years.  DS got a quick, outsourced spinoff, developed in under a year, and with entirely recycled content.  And then DS got a remake of a mobile game, also outsourced, also made in under a year.

And the more interesting thing on 3DS, is that the internal PSP team has moved to it and is making the KH 3DS game, which Nomura promises to be another "full fledged" entry, to the point where he even said it could be mistaken for KH3.  So... where exactly does this leave PSP2 now?  People saying PSP2 can get these same games aren't looking deep enough, the same teams that made these sorts of franchises on PSP (KH, MGS, etc) have already moved to 3DS.  They also didn't make these games on DS.  If these teams are on 3DS, yet were only on PSP previously, where does that leave PSP2 then?

What if Nomura feels like putting Kingdom Hearts 3 on the PSP 2?  Or what if Nomura comes with an idea that works well with what the PSP 2 might offer?  You make it sound like that's not gonna happen and it could very well happen.  Another thing the main Kingdom Hearts team is not working on the 3DS game, the whole reason why Kingdom Hearts 3 is probably not gonna be released this generation is because the main team is working on Final Fantasy Vs XIII and if my estimates are right, that game's 3 years off.

Do not underestimate how much these devs / publishers want to capitalize on the 3DS from the start this time around. Everyone wrote off the DS and Wii even before they were released and they paid for it. No one wants to make the same mistake this time which is why the 3DS is getting such amazing support from the offset. The PSP2 could very well be a success, but it's not going to get the huge benefit of the doubt the first PSP got that's for sure.

Who wrote off the DS?  And I'm not saying devs are going to put their best resources into the PSP 2, but to assume that just because the 3DS is getting support that the PSP 2 isn't going to is just stupid.

I'm just saying the level of optimism from what I've gauged isn't near the same level as when the PSP was getting set to release. Do you remember the DS's launch lineup? It was pretty pathetic considering how successful the system turned out to be and I will assure you that a lot of publishers wish they had put more faith in Nintendo back then. A system's launch provides a huge opportunity to start up a new franchise or gain consumer recognition of an existing one. I'm not saying they won't get them but I am saying they won't just be handed to them this time around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS_launches#North_American_launch_games



Solid_Snake4RD on 05 November 2010
Grimes said:

Sony has been slaughtered by companies that don't use the loss leader strategy. Take a look at Apple which never sells its products for loss. It has generated more profit in the last five years than the entire market value of Sony. In other words, Apple has made so much profit that it could buy Sony with that profit. But it won't because Apple doesn't want Sony's unprofitable businesses.

you know there are different ways in how different businesses and industry work

so just saying "hey look that that company,it is doing it without a loss so why can't the other one" isn't the right way to compare it

APPLE had a totally different scenario,they used their IPOD brand name to market iPhone .and talfully for them the devices were getting connected and all digital so that helped them.also the struggling cell phone market which needed a boost and didn't have anything new and cool around that time,so when iphone launched everyone hoped on the bandwagon and wanted to buy the COOL iphone

and apple became the COOL company that is just how it works

now any product it release will have good sales cause it has a  dedicated fanbase

but after sometimes every company losses its coolness and people get used to it and want new cool thing so they will hop on to something else

 

apple never selling it at a loss doesn't have anything to do with this as their products are very cheap to make as it is,iPhone  4 cost just $185 to make. and plus they make more with AT&T contracts and exclusivity.they are ottaly different industries

 

and when did this thread be about SONY and APPLE profit and one buying the other,just get that shit out of this thread.you want to discuss it,start your own thread

 

Grimes said:

To be more on point, you don't need to sell products for a loss for them to be successful. If your product is innovative, desirable and the marketing is sound, then you can sell your product for a profit from day one and still lead the market.

you also need to understand that different industries work differently and in gaming industry the main thing is software which needs and install base and companies tend to sell their products at a lower cost to increase the install base so more games come to their platform

if you product is innovative then it will be expensive most likely cause anything new needs time to get accepted and the start up costs are high

if your product is desirable then the consumer economics  standpoint comes in as follows:

a consumer should have the wish to buy that product

a consumer should have the need to buy that product

a consumer should have the ability to buy that product

 

marketing just ccreates hype and cool and popular,it stays for sometime but their are alot of other thing attached to a purchase

 

well if your product is innovative and desired and marketed and $200 then it will sell

but if your product is innovative and desired and marketed and $1000 then it won't sell that good

 

consumers normally have a wish to buy products but they don't necessarily need it so they spend their money on other needed things and the also the most consumers don't have the ability to buy that products as in they do not have money so they don't buy it

this should tell you how soceity works and it just isn't that the best device sells most



jarrod on 05 November 2010
Solid_Snake4RD said:

and what do you mean by this???????????????????

this isn't the stage for telling history

if MH is the only reason then why so many other titles have consistently pushed PSP HW in japan and so many other games have sold well

keep on going,your story telling doesn't come near to what we are debating

PSP did take off very well the first year and a half and.it was still selling well after that,not DS well but very good and then it began down.

sony does best shouldn't just be for what they make but what they do for their platform.so just because they try to bring quality third party titles to their platform doesn't mean they don't contribute to it,it their decision about what type of games come to PSP and what market they want to target to.they wer targeting the mature crowd not like you said just trying to imitate ninty and bring up this debate that challenging ninty in its own field

What I mean by "this" is that PSP1 and PSP2 find themselves entering very different markets, with very different industries, and a very different Sony at the helm.  PSP1 had a LOT going in it's favor that's gone today...

MoHun basically created the current PSP marketplace in Japan that exists today, almost single handedly.  It's something few games can really claim to have done for a system before, the only things even comparable are Super Mario Bros. rocketing the Famicom to stardom and Pokemon fully reviving the Game Boy from near death.  Other games sold on those systems too.... if PSP2 loses MH though, it'd be like if GBA had lost Pokemon or SFC losing Mario.  It'd be a HUGE impediment to the successor platform.

Oh, and nice to see you've narrowed down to "1st year and half".  Convenient how that works for PSP, yet against LR. ;)



jarrod on 05 November 2010
Solid_Snake4RD said:
Galaki said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

because of piracy


Yeah, piracy killed PSP the same way it killed DS and Xbox 360. Damn pirates.


not really

PSP piracy is very different from DS,360.

there are alot of ways the PSP can be pirated on and alot doesn't even require modding it like it is necessary on 360,DS

and modding items are banned in many countries so 360 and DS got their asses saved but PSP which had ways to be pirated on without modding,it got slaughtered

and never compare handheld piracy with console piracy,it is very different and the online features save the console piracy even more

Uh, no mods are required to pirate games on a DS.  Hell, you don't even have to flash firmware (which is also "modding" btw) like you do with PSP.  

Hell, you don't even need a DS to pirate and play DS games, you just emulate the system.  Unlike PSP piracy, which requires a hardware purchase...