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Forums - General Discussion - Islam and Christianity are almost the same!

SpartenOmega117 said:

...
Fifth:

Muslims do not hate Jews or Christians!

We actually consider them people of the book.

In fact throughtout history (according to world history AP class I am in) Islam showed the most tolerance against other religions. When that arab empire continued to expand they allowed Jews and Christians to continue practicing their faith. In fact in earlier timesafter Mohammad, Muslims did not want to spread their religion but somehow the religion spread anyways.

So i have many Jewish and Christian friends and I hope it remains that way.

 

For example while many people tend to see Muslim countries as the aggressor and Jews as the victim, it was a very different story throughout the history.

In late 15th century, King Manuel of Portugal which was ruling over the Iberian peninsula (current day Spain/Portugal) has ordered the expulsion of all Jews unless they convert to Christianity which followed many killings at the hands of Inquisitiors. After this Sapnish monarch has taken stance against Jews and over 150.000 Jews escaped from Iberia. Most of them fleed to Ottoman Empire as many European countries were unwilling to accept Jews in fear of the strong rule of Church. Ottoman Empire has sent fleets to carry the Jews to many cities under the rule of Ottoman Empire including the current day Isntabul, Saloniki and later even to Jerusalem. The Sultan of Ottoman Empire is said to have exclaimed thus at the Spanish monarch's lack of wisdom: "Ye call Ferdinand a wise king he who makes his land poor and ours rich!" In the beginning of 16th century only 70 Jew families were living in Jerusalem while at the end of the 16th century 1500 families were living there under the rule of Ottoman Empire.
wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey#Ottoman_era

When you watch Fox news it's like Jews and muslims were killing each other for all throughout the history but the current day situation caused by the creation of state of Israel in 1940s by the allied forces of WWI is in fact in stark contrast with more than 1000 years of history between Christians, Jews and Muslims.



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Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much? Afaik it's not really mentioned in the holy books. But looking at surveys on it:
Not a single mosque openly accepts gay members.
Gallup survey can’t find a single British Muslim who approves of homosexuality.
68% of american muslims support the death penalty against homosexuals.
27% of hate crimes against homosexuals committed in UK by Muslims (3% of population).

I know from personal experience muslims are the most hostile towards us, Christians often say bad things but they will not wish death upon you for what you do in your personal life (except in uganda apparently).

I don't like how you are insinuating you're a true muslim and all that you say is correct while anyone else is not a real muslim. For example, to most muslims there are 2 holy books, the Qu'ran and the Sunnah (or 3 if you count the Sunnah as it's sperate parts, the Hadith and Sira). You strangely don't recognise the existence of the Sunnah yet give over emphasis on the bible/torah/zabur which aren't very important in islam. A muslim cannot read the bible or torah as a religious text, the qu'ran retells the important stories from these many times and stands alone for muslims.

You also don't provide any sources for any of your statements, which are merely opinions that many muslims would disagree strongly with. I would question whether you have even read the qu'ran or whether you are forbidden to do so because it would be worrying to you (Qu'ran 5:101-102).

"Muslims do not hate Jews or Christians!"

Yes there are some passages, the very last verse of the qu'ran in fact, that preaches tolerance towards other religions, but it is preceded by line after line of hatred.

There are only 2 ways you can judge the muslim population: by what is written in the holy books; and by the actions and views (opinion polls) of the adherents. I have looked at both before coming to any conclusions.

5:14 And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them...

3:118: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater.

Christians and Jews are described as "those who earn Allah's anger," and "those who go astray", and "they whom Allah hath cursed". Jews are said to have been turned into apes and called the greediest of all mankind. "Verily evil is their handiwork." Countless times the qu'ran talks about having prepared a fire for all non-muslims in which they will burn for eternity, and muslims will get to see it and laugh (83:34). The qu'ran says not to be friends with non-muslims or you are one of them (5:51). A total of 527 verses preach hatred towards non-muslims. And a statistical analysis shows 61% of the qu'ran is about non-muslims. It's common for all religions and even political groups to preach hatred towards outsiders, it's a good way to survive and propogate.

In Islamic law if you leave the faith, you are to be put to death (after being given a chance to come back). 61% of british muslims want this introduced in britain.

Ok so we've looked at the qu'ran, but religious people don't 100% live their religious texts as it is impossible, but the opinion polls also show a strong hatred towards specifically Jews, but all nonmuslims also.

40% of British Muslims believe Jews are "a legitimate target". 100% of people in Jordan, Lebanon view jews unfavourably. Egypt, Qatar and Saudi Arabia all promote Holocaust denial and protect Holocaust deniers. Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumber Muslim victims by a 10-1 ratio in the usa. At protests muslims hold signs saying "behead those who insult islam" and "freedom of expression go to hell". Just google image search "islam protest sign". These are not all extremists, the normal moderate muslims are the same.

"Muslims do not encourange killings!

As a proud Muslim I can say that nowhere in the Quran does it say to kill a person."

You are surely deliberately lieing about this, or have certainly not read the qu'ran. If I was a muslim I would not waste any of my time until I had read all the holy texts, to ensure I was not sinning. Why do religious people not do this? A muslim I know told me he wasn't allowed to read the Qu'ran because he couldn't speak Arabic and english translations were corrupted by Djinns... How can you even call yourself a muslim if you haven't read it?

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter."

Sure, the verse is about killing people who have attacked you in the past, but you say nowhere in the qu'ran does it say to kill and quite clearly you are wrong. There are many other passages about killing I can find if you want.

"Another thing you should address is the term "Jihad"."


How about a little honestly instead of rehashing deceptive muslim apologist talking points? Fact: 3% of hadiths are about jihad as inner struggle, 97% are about violence. Islam is a violent religion and it is from the very beginning. Mohammad tried hard to preach peacefully in Mecca for 13 years, he gained few followers. He then moved to Medina where he was involved in regular attacks for the rest of his life, and he became ruler of Arabia without any enemies left standing. Islam has been so succesful because it is a political doctrine more than a religious one.

If Islam is a religion of peace then the most islamic countries should be the most peaceful right? But strangely the 5 at the bottom of the Global Peace Index are all Islamic and the only Islamic near the top is Qatar (15th). Is it really a coincidence? Is it a coincidence that Sweden, Japan, Norway etc. are the top countries of the peace index and the human developmental index, and they are the least religious countries?

Islam is fundamentally opposed to both democracy and freedom of speech. Islamic terrorists are 100% influenced by religion, there is no other way a person could be convinced to blow up others and himself, than if he was promised with an afterlife in paradise. Studies of islamic terrorists show them to have less mental illness than the general population, and that they are generally well educated. It is a fallacy to deny that they are really muslims. If true muslims hate terrorism why do only 28% of nigerian muslims oppose suicide bombing? A poll showed that a quarter of British Muslims sympathise with the motives of the London bombers. An undercover survey of more than 100 mosques showed 75% of U.S. mosques preach terrorism.

A few questions for you peace loving muslims:
1. Do you accept homosexuals deserve to live and not be harassed?
2. Have you read the Qu'ran and Sunnah?
3. Do you accept the holocaust happened?
4. Do you accept evolution happens?
5. Do you think it is right to kill someone who leaves islam?
6. Is it right to stone to death an adulterer?
7. Is it good that 68% of Punjabi girls have been molested?
8. Must non-muslims refrain from all criticisms of Islam or warrant beheading?

I realise there is only one islamic answer to these questions, it's for the non-muslims to see. You don't like to talk about what you really believe, just insisting you are peaceful and crying persecution. To see what persecution is really like try being a homosexual Jewish atheist in an islamic country.



Well you forgot one. I talked with one of Canada's leading Imam's at a Religious Peace Conference which stopped to do a talk in my city. I went and actually asked to talk with the Imam. The man thought I was converting and rushed me to the Imam. The conference's home page is here, Ameer Naseem Mahdi who built the biggest Mosque in Canada.

I talked with the Imam for about an hour before and about half an hour after the conference. It was very enlightening to say the least. He brought up one you did not. Christian's and Muslims are the decendants of Abraham. Christians from Isaac and Muslims from Ishmael.

Anyways the Imam said that the Qur'an specifically mentions Christian's as people of the book. He also said the Qur'an talks about helping those who are being persecuted like rebuilding places of worship for Christians. He said that according to the Qur'an and Mohammed that Muslims and Christian's should live together in harmony.

It was really interesting talking to him. He wasn't upset when I told him I was Mennonite and not actually looking to convert. He even told me that Jihad as said in the Qur'an is only supposed to be used when your being persecuted for your faith and not as an act of war against all non-believers.

The only problem I have is that Muslim's in many parts of the world actively slaughter Christians. It is illegal in many countries including Afghanistan to convert or believe in Christ as your Lord and saviour. I personally have met Christians fleeing Iraq because Muslims torched their houses and threatened to kill them if they didn't leave.

Somalia, Yemen , Iraq , Afghanistan , Eritrea, Sudan just to name a few countries where Muslims are slaughtering Christian's by the thousands. I would like to see the moderate Muslims do more to prevent the killing of innocent Christians.

I mean when was the last time that I heard moderate Muslim Imam's issuing a Fatwa against Terrorism(Terrorists) and un-Qur'anic Jihad? I wanna hear the Imam building the 9/11 mosque issue alongside many other Muslim moderate Imam's issue a formal Fatwa against Osama Bin Laden.

Why don't the moderate Muslims and infact all Qur'an believing Muslims unite and stick alongside their Christian Brethern? Why aren't their Muslim leaders praying publically for the troops from Nato. Why aren't these Muslims volunteering to go with the UN into help their tortured Christian brothers in Darfur or Iraq?

I just don't understand, I know of Christian groups which deployed to Afghanistan to help build schools and help the needy. Guess what they were kidnapped and some killed. I know of Christians who went to Iraq to try and stop the US war and bring peace. Guess what they got killed and kidnapped.

So with all the Christians headed to the Middle East to help Muslims why aren't their any Muslim organisations doing the same for their Christian brothers?



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

Ok, since a Muslim is writing this, it would make sense they don't see why there wouldn't be much difference.  The issues where Muslims deny what the gospels and New Testament texts say about Jesus pretty much undermines what makes Christianity what it is.  All the other stuff ends up, whether it be Adventists, or some other group, the basics of Jesus being the Son of God, and dying and returning is there (even in Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses).  Ok, this being said, here is where Islam ends up deviating from Christianity, and rendering Christianity pointless:

* Denial of the incarnation of God as man.  This has multiple effects that make the Christian message not work.  First, a Muslim will end up saying man is not made in the image of God.  Islam says it is wrong wrong, eventhough Genesis says it is.  The idea of people being children of God is foreign in Islam.  God is not Father, God is Master.  We are just his servants.  And God has no sons according to Islam.  No way Jesus is even the Son of God.

* The focus of Islam is on submission, not love.  One can say one loves God in Islam, but that isn't the core.  The core is submission, and obedience (Islam mean submission).  Christians submit out of love to God.  Also, love for others also stems from humans being made in the image of God, and being like God, and this love being a reflection of what one thinks of God.

* Islam denies the death of Christ, and with it, the resurrection.  In Islam, Jesus is considered sinless, but there is no way a just God allows a sinless prophet to die.  Death and sin are not overcome through the death and resurrection of Christ.  There is no victory.

* Islam speaks of personal Jihad people do to overcome sin and temptation, but there is NOTHING about the human condition having issues that makes this battle not really doable without God's help.  There is no imparting of the Spirit of God to empower a person to overcoming sin.  And there is NOTHING resembling the western Christian concept of original sin either, or the Eastern tradition that humans are under a curse (a bit different from original sin).  In Islam, everything is because of faulty texts.  If you just give people the perfect text, the Qu'ran, then the issue of overcoming sin will be dealt with just fine.

* Jesus, AT LEAST, needs to be THE Messiah in the Christian faith, and this be understood.  This is understood to be savior, and deliverer.  In Islam, yes Jesus is The Messiah, but no one knows what it means.  People speculate what it means, but there is argument that it doesn't mean savior, because God alone saves.  Calling Jesus Lord would likely be straight out also.  Without having a clue what Jesus as Messiah means, it is hard to do anything resembling Christianity.

* Lastly, the Old and New Testaments are considered corrupted in Islam.  I would be interested in seeing a Muslim take the New Testament text and blot out those texts that are wrong and see what is left.  Not sure much would be.  Also, the question of why the Quran is perfect, but the other texts aren't also begs the question also. of how that would work. 

So, on the surface, it would seem they are similar.  But, by making Jesus an unessential and an afterthought just touched on in the Quran, makes it really hard to considered they are similar. I also think a Muslim would find it outright weird to think of a group of some people of The Book, to be part of Christ's body. After all, why would a prophet have a body made up of people of the Book.



valleyshrew said:

A few questions for you peace loving muslims:
1. Do you accept homosexuals deserve to live and not be harassed?
2. Have you read the Qu'ran and Sunnah?
3. Do you accept the holocaust happened?
4. Do you accept evolution happens?
5. Do you think it is right to kill someone who leaves islam?
6. Is it right to stone to death an adulterer?
7. Is it good that 68% of Punjabi girls have been molested?
8. Must non-muslims refrain from all criticisms of Islam or warrant beheading?


I would like to answer a few:

1. If it is an Islamic country, there is no place for homosexuals. Do you have place for Child Pornography? No! How did you draw line between a homosexual and child pornographer? Your drawing this line is based on what you think right and what you don't. Likewise, Islam also thinks in certain way.

2. I read the Quran and Sunnah (there are 6 books of Sunnah/Hadith and I read them all). I am not a native Arab but I learned Arabic for this very purpose.

3. Not a sane muslim would support it. Quran says, if you kill one human being without justification, it is as though you killed the whole of humanity.

4. I don't believe it happened and I have doubt it was a fact. Rather it is a theory disbelieved by many non-Muslim scholars of the west also.

5. Do you believe it is right to punish a deserter from Army?

6. It may be hard for you to understand why adultery is so bad in Islam. Look at the people cheat their wives and then get caught. What goes through the minds of those women. Even some consider having more than one girlfriend wrong! There are differences of opinion so don't just point towards Islams.

7. Islam is not responsible for the wrongdoing of any individual or group. By the way, what is your view about the high rape rate in the west including child molesting inspite the fact that sex is open there.

8. Islam is a pure religion as per the believe of the Muslims. You can't leave this community. Like you behead the person commit treason.

 

If you want to get more knowledge about these things, just listen to Dr. Zakir Naik's lecture or Ahmad Deedat's lecture. Youtube has plenty of it. These are very useful lectures for people who want to know the truth of religions including Islam and Christianity. They quote the books and give you the answers.



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richardhutnik said:

So, on the surface, it would seem they are similar.  But, by making Jesus an unessential and an afterthought just touched on in the Quran, makes it really hard to considered they are similar. I also think a Muslim would find it outright weird to think of a group of some people of The Book, to be part of Christ's body. After all, why would a prophet have a body made up of people of the Book.


Enough talk from laymen. Listen to someone learned of both the religions and scriptures:

 

Just follow Youtube link to get other lectures on the same topic.



Mendicate Bias said:
HappySqurriel said:

One of the core differences between Islam and Christianity (or Judaism) is how the doctrine is viewed today. For the most part, in Christianity and Judaism there is the belief that the Bible and Torah need to be interpreted and made relevant in modern life, where the Qu'aran and Haddiths are supposed to be taken as the true words of the prophet (and therefore god). While most western born and raised Muslims from middle class backgrounds probably have a view of Islam which is closer to how Christian or Jewish people see their religion, these individuals are a tiny minority of the people who follow Islam; and it would be more appropriate to label these individuals extremists than moderate Muslims due to how they line up with mainstream Islam on a worldwide scale.

A bunch of things wrong with that post. The haddiths are in no way the word of God, they are stories about what prophets and religious leaders did or said in specific situations. Not to mention they are extremely corrupted, any intelligent muslim can tell you that.

Secondly your interpretation of how muslims view the Quran is completely wrong. Even among the very religious there are arguments on the meanings of verses. The majority of muslims understand that we would be foolish to believe that we can understand everything said in the Quran and the meanings of many things are probably beyond the grasp of our understanding.

I don't know where you get your information but I would advise you look somewhere else for an accurate understanding of islam.


I understand what the Hadiths are, and I think I phrased my last post poorly.

My information about islam comes from the religious studies class I took in university which was taught by an Imam ...

Regardless of whether you want to believe it or not, within Islam the belief is that the Qu'aran is the true word of god because it was written down by the Prophet Mohammed; and the Haddiths are seen to be unquestioned stories about the Prophet Mohammed and are examples of how to live because they were written down in his lifetime. This is significantly different from the other Abrahamic religions being that their religious texts were written hundreds of years after their prophets died; and, in the case of Christianity in particular, have been translated several times to become the books they are today.

There is far less room to interpret the Qu'aran as there is to interpret the Bible, especially given that after the Reformation a large portion of Christians (protestants) have choosen a view of the religion where a large portion of the passages are (more or less) invalidated or outdated.



"Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much? Afaik it's not really mentioned in the holy books"

I don't know about other religions but it is prohibited in Islam.

 

"Do you think it is right to kill someone who leaves islam?"

Your'e right in the quraan it does say to kill them, but no one is stupid enough to confess.

 

But to be perfectly honest where I live a lot of people hate Jews. But i don't :p



you're just stating the obvious



1. Allah is the title god. Ellah which reffers to the name of the rock in Mecca that most muslims make a pilgrimage to sounds very similar to Allah when pronounced in Arabic, it is also the name of what Muhhamad gave the title of Allah.

Ellah was not even a god to the Pagans that Muhhamad slaughtered.

2. Neither the Torah nor Bible(s) reffer to a Arabic prophet after Jesus shit the Torah at least notes Jesus as a prophet.

3. We ("the west")  would not have secular discussion if the Bible wasn't ammended, it would have taken America to create the change once the colonies revolted against the old draconic ways.

4. This is a strait lie, unless you don't know your own law, 'A husband is a womans gate way to heaven or hell'. This is strait to the point don't care to type a lot here.

5. Muslims do hate jews and christians and one person saying that they don't wont change the last 1300 years of hating that is still exercised today in islam and it's other forms.

6. ... prefference is prefference

7. Yes you do, it's just that what you guys kill about any secular person would worry about the ethics involved, to Islamics it's just the thing to do.

8. It's so funny how beliefs work: In real life if I disagree and point out history and the obvious to muslims or if muslims believe a whole nation is doing this they will bring out signs saying "Islam is peace and death to the slanderers." Online apparantly now its "Islam is peace and your an ignorant slanderer!"

I didn't get a chance to read the other posters will do that later.



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