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Forums - General Discussion - wot ur opinion on the european union?

Diomedes1976 said:

The thing USA dont likes and fears is that ,slowly for sure but without pause ,the EU can find its own voice in international and military affairs .That seems still quite far from the current situation but some steps are being made in that direction and the new Galileo satellite system can more than rival GPS into precision and potential military uses .USA dont want to have their will opposed in the military field ,specially by the European Union that being way closer to the international scenario of the key issues (Middle East ,Africa ,Rusia ,Israel ,Iran ,etc ) would be the one to hear.Besides if the EU develops a big military power the US bases in the EU would have to be gradually abandoned and USA would lose a lot of its strategic position .The NATO is a solid alliance but once the EU could rival the USA its a question of time (and not a lot ) until the control of the bases passed into european hands exclusively.Basically USA fears that a united Europe and with a unified military command would be again a power like the Roman Empire that we have to recall was the last time Europe was united over a single governement .

That's a great premise in theory, but what real reason would the USA have to fear a United Europe? If anything a United Europe would be greatly beneficial to the USA in many ways.

A poster above also mentioned how the USA actually badgered the EU to add members to its collective; doesn't that action run counter to your supposition of the USA's fears/intentions?



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Actually, I'm starting to realise that EU is not the way to go for our continent. I think we should have a unified military and to some extent economy, but as a whole, the different regions are really too different to actually unify in more than a superficial way.

I REALLY don't want any other country to have influence in swedish politics, I'm quite satisfied with our country the way it is. And I'm certain most inhabitants of other countries think this about their respective countries aswell.

The only thing I think would work would be a more unified Scandinavia. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Finland essentially work the same way, and we certainly could use this to gain a bigger competative edge against the rest of the world.



the eu is aready a international player and in some fields it has more powers then the usa, a few month ago i was listening to a podcast on line about a united europe by a american proffesor he siad that the eu can stop american companies taking over other american companies and this has already happen so the eu has more power than the usa already (i'll get the link asap)



 

 

Words Of Wisdom said:
Diomedes1976 said:

The thing USA dont likes and fears is that ,slowly for sure but without pause ,the EU can find its own voice in international and military affairs .That seems still quite far from the current situation but some steps are being made in that direction and the new Galileo satellite system can more than rival GPS into precision and potential military uses .USA dont want to have their will opposed in the military field ,specially by the European Union that being way closer to the international scenario of the key issues (Middle East ,Africa ,Rusia ,Israel ,Iran ,etc ) would be the one to hear.Besides if the EU develops a big military power the US bases in the EU would have to be gradually abandoned and USA would lose a lot of its strategic position .The NATO is a solid alliance but once the EU could rival the USA its a question of time (and not a lot ) until the control of the bases passed into european hands exclusively.Basically USA fears that a united Europe and with a unified military command would be again a power like the Roman Empire that we have to recall was the last time Europe was united over a single governement .

That's a great premise in theory, but what reason would the USA have to fear a United Europe?  If anything a United Europe would be greatly beneficial to the USA in many ways.

A poster above also mentioned how the USA actually badgered the EU to add members to its collective; doesn't that action run counter to your supposition of the USA's fears/intentions?


USA wouldnt have anything to fear from EU in principle.But ,those who have the power and that take the decisions always fear losing that power and that capacity to take the decisions by themselves.As an example USA may allow UE countries to use the GPS system for military purposes ,but they like and want to have the decission in allowing it or not ...it gives them information ,influence ,power ,gains some favours ....but when the Eu develops their own satellite system (even more advanced ) named Galileo  and doesnt need anymore the GPS system for they potential needs (including military ones ) the US has been very vocal against it and pressionated all the ways it could to avoid this to happen .Those who have the power and who take decisions doesnt want that removed from them .

And USA has badgered the EU into admiting members faster that expected just because some of those members (as Poland ) are more akin to USA than to other european countries .Those countries having now the capacity to vote in Brussels means the US has gained some influence over the votations held there.Thats one of the main reasons why US insist so strongly for the UE to admit Turkey in it ,as Turkey is a very big country with a special and long bond with the US and could use it to block decisions from Brussells if those were against what they perceived their interests .As you see ,everything has a good explanation .



Diomedes1976 said:

USA wouldnt have anything to fear from EU in principle.But ,those who have the power and that take the decisions always fear losing that power and that capacity to take the decisions by themselves.As an example USA may allow UE countries to use the GPS system for military purposes ,but they like and want to have the decission in allowing it or not ...it gives them information ,influence ,power ,gains some favours ....but when the Eu develops their own satellite system (even more advanced ) named Galileo and doesnt need anymore the GPS system for they potential needs (including military ones ) the US has been very vocal against it and pressionated all the ways it could to avoid this to happen .Those who have the power and who take decisions doesnt want that removed from them .

And USA has badgered the EU into admiting members faster that expected just because some of those members (as Poland ) are more akin to USA than to other european countries .Those countries having now the capacity to vote in Brussels means the US has gained some influence over the votations held there.Thats one of the main reasons why US insist so strongly for the UE to admit Turkey in it ,as Turkey is a very big country with a special and long bond with the US and could use it to block decisions from Brussells if those were against what they perceived their interests .As you see ,everything has a good explanation .


A good response.

As much as I'd love to start a debate somewhere in this thread, I acknowledged in my first post that my knowledge of the EU is insufficient for it and sadly that has yet to change.

Thanks for the reply.



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Wojtas:

Well, it's no wonder that in the UK the EU isn't considered that much of a blessing, the economy is overall stronger, as can be seen with the pound vs euro ratings. For us Poles, it's a chance to finally get our economy going in the right direction, 45 years of communism can really make a mess with any country. For me, the EU is a great way to move around the continent without having too much problems. The Schengen treaty is a bliss in this case.


It can be see that UK economy is strong with the pound vs euro ratings? That's sth new.
45 years of communism made a mess with your country? I'm not sure if you know but Poland wasn't richer before communism. Not to even mention the social rights and freedom in Second or First Republic. Communist didn't make a mess from your county it only slowed its development.
Also communism doesn't "make a mess" from China's or Vietnam' but makes them ones of the fastest growing economies in world.



kamil said:
Wojtas:
Well, it's no wonder that in the UK the EU isn't considered that much of a blessing, the economy is overall stronger, as can be seen with the pound vs euro ratings. For us Poles, it's a chance to finally get our economy going in the right direction, 45 years of communism can really make a mess with any country. For me, the EU is a great way to move around the continent without having too much problems. The Schengen treaty is a bliss in this case.


It can be see that UK economy is strong with the pound vs euro ratings? That's sth new.
45 years of communism made a mess with your country? I'm not sure if you know but Poland wasn't richer before communism. Not to even mention the social rights and freedom in Second or First Republic. Communist didn't make a mess from your county it only slowed its development.
Also communism doesn't "make a mess" from China's or Vietnam' but makes them ones of the fastest growing economies in world.

Vietnam turned out OK as far as I know, but Communism was responsible for some seriously FUBAR disasters in China.  Exhibit A:  Great Leap Forward.  Don't even respond until you know what I'm talking about.  It's only in the past decade or two that China has pulled itself up from being the world's biggest poorhouse, and most of that is due to the integration of Hong Kong and capitalism-friendly policies, not to mention a massive trade partnership with the U.S. 

I'm not qualified to debate on what living under Soviet rule did or didn't to to Poland, but I bet it was more than what you imply by "slowed down development". 


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@Final-Fan: I agree about China's and their errors in the past (they make errors still like banning Wikipedia for example) however I don't agree that Hongkong had much to do with it, China was growing before taking over of Hongkong. Also it's a little territory. There live around 7mln people as opposed to 1.3 bln living in China so it wasn't even possible to save China by Hongkong. I agree that there are lot more of capitalism freedom in China than it used to be but this doesn't change the fact that China is still considered a communist counry as there are no strict rules as wheter a country is communist or not (and many left-winged people do not consider any of existing of former communist countres as a true communist).

I'm not qualified to debate on what living under Soviet rule did or didn't to to Poland, but I bet it was more than what you imply by "slowed down development".

Poland never was a part of Soviet union. It was influenced by it, especially during Stalin's time but it's also influenced (by Washington and Brussels mostly) now.
The economic slowdown is the most importent effect of Polish political system during that time. There of course are others things but they are not as important and are often debatble.



EU is the best thing that could have happened to Europe from an economic standpoint, in fact integration of Europe should continue



 

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As an "US American" I'd be more then happy for the EU to be the number one power in the world.  It's a pain in the ass to be the "number one power" in the world and acknowledged as such, because every crackpot positions himself against you.  

It's not like the USA and EU are in anyway enemies or something or would go over blows over anything in our lifetime.  America needs a freaking break from being the perceived "top dog" so a lot of people can stop worrying about maintaining "Top Dog" status and start worrying about fixing problems in the country.  As long as they stay an important part of the world economy who cares if the US is number one?  They stay important enough and other countries will continue to foot the bill on the US's insane economic polices.  Maybe fear of them not being number 1 will convince polititans that it's infact not a good idea to spend more money then you take in.  The republicans used to be against that kind of thing, but now with Neo-cons in control both sides seem to want to spend money like trust fund kids.

Turkey needs to stay out of the EU though.   They're way to different to make it work now in my opinion.