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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Give Us Back The Old Nintendo (Nowgamer article)

Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

"Your kinda grasping for straw's, listing one or two sequels on the PS3 and 360 doesn't counteract his argument."

Just because he didn't list more doesn't mean there aren't loads more.

Plus new IP is not the same thing as not being a sequel.


I'm not saying there aren't sequel's on the HD consoles, I'm just saying that in terms of great new IPs, Nintendo is lacking.

When I think of new IPs this gen, I remember Resistance, Gears of War, Little Big Planet, Infamous, Crackdown, Alan Wake, Uncharted, Flower, Mass Effect, Shadow Complex and Demon's Souls. Then you have the robust Third Party support. The only new IPs that come to mind when I think of the Wii is the Wii series. 

 


Well it's still not the case that Nintendo hasn't done new IPs. They are just often lower profile. Plus a lot of the new IPs you listed were merely published first party, so going by that we have plenty of new IPs from Nintendo, ranging from Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents, to Xenoblade, to Last Story, to Endless Ocean, to Brain Age, to the Wii series, to Nintendogs, to Trace Memory, to Hotel Dusk, to Glory of Heracles, to Professor Layton.

I didn't realise that we were bringing in DS games, I was only talking about consoles, otherwise I would have mentioned some PSP games. The Wii is the problem, not the DS.


The bolded part refers to them in general. And you clearly didn't notice a lot of what I listed is still on the Wii.

The article is specifically talking about the Nintendo Wii, I assumed that everyone else in this thread was also talking about the Nintendo Wii. So when I mention Nintendo in my post in this thread, I'm obviously referring to Nintendos performance on the Wii.

Xenoblade, Wii series, The Last Story and Endless Ocean are the only Wii IPs you mentioned. Xenoblade has only been released in Japan with no Western release scheduled and The Last Story hasn't been released yet, so no one knows if it's going to be any good or not. Your post proves my point and unless you try a littler harder I will remain convinced that Nintendo have put little effort into introducing new IPs this gen.


But if you add qualifiers, then I can knock off most of the HD games you listed using various means.

And why is a new IP so vital? You need a solid game as well, and Nintendo is not going to make a new IP just for the sake of it. And so far you haven't given a reason to have a new IP other than for the sake of it.


There aren't any qualifiers, were talking about the Wii and not the DS, that's pretty much it. Every point I made was true and still stands, if I was to start listing off games that haven't been released yet or have only released in Japan, then my list would be much larger.

A new IP is vital when introducing new experiences. Despite what many people on this site may think, Mario Galaxy plays alot like Mario Sunshine, which played alot like Mario 64. Mario Kart Wii plays alot like Mario Kart 64 and Double Dash. Super Smash Bros. Brawl was just not as good as the last games in the series due to the controller. We have 8 Mario Partys and they lost their shine after the 4th. Twilight Princess is a port, Pikmin 1 2 are ports, Mario Tennis is a port and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat is a port.

You can tweak thing's here and there, but every Nintendo game stay's essentially the same. Nintendo are boring, they have such great talent and yet we see the same game over and over again.  I expect better from the greatest developers in the world.


What you are describing is sequels that don't change much, not because they are the same IPs.

Oh, and you can't judge Brawl due to one controler option. You can use the GC controller for that as well. Didn't you know that?

And your contention that Nintendo is boring loses validity, as that is a personal opinion, and not a good reason to insist they make new IPs.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

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Viper1 said:
Boutros said:
Torillian said:

you could, but you'd have to drop Elite Beat Agents, Last Story, Endless Ocean, Trace Memory, Hotel Dusk, Glory of Heracles, and Professor Layton.

Not Xenoblade?

Nintendo owns Monolith Soft


indeed, which I'm not sure if that would define it as second party or first party.  To me it would be first since I define First Party as the developers being part of the console maker's company, second party is the console maker owning the IP but the developers are not part of the company, and third party is when the console maker takes no part in the game from a publishing or development point of view.  Others might define them differently though.



...

Torillian said:
Viper1 said:
Boutros said:
Torillian said:

you could, but you'd have to drop Elite Beat Agents, Last Story, Endless Ocean, Trace Memory, Hotel Dusk, Glory of Heracles, and Professor Layton.

Not Xenoblade?

Nintendo owns Monolith Soft


indeed, which I'm not sure if that would define it as second party or first party.  To me it would be first since I define First Party as the developers being part of the console maker's company, second party is the console maker owning the IP but the developers are not part of the company, and third party is when the console maker takes no part in the game from a publishing or development point of view.  Others might define them differently though.

This is understood as the defintion held by most in the industry itself. 

Though there are many that completely remove the 2nd party definition and that any IP published (and is usually then owned) by the console maker is then 1st party.  I still prefer the former definitions just as you do.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

LordTheNightKnight said:

Well the point is that Nintendo isn't that far behind the other first parties, or even the third parties. Note that taken individually, each developer has put out fewer IPs each generation. So singling out Nintendo is wrong, since it's not just them.

Yes, but Nintendo also publishes games. There's nothing stopping them (the most successful gaming company) from investing into new IPs from other developers. Demon's Souls was pretty much broken before Sony Japan came in and fixed everything. Modnation Racer's wouldn't have ever existed if Sony hadn't thrown money at United Front. Little Big Planet wouldn't even exist if Phil Harrison didn't take in Media Molecule and finance the project.

The list goes on and on. Sony have put legitimate effort into financing and co developing great new projects and they've even gone out of their way to help support Third Parties with games like Bayonetta and helping small  developers by creating the Phyre Engine (a free to use game engine, now being used by Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Gust, Compile Heart, Thatgamecompany and Codemasters). Microsoft have done similar things.

Nintendo have been very successful this gen, I'd expect this kind of support coming from them, instead of the Third Place console.



Bet with Conegamer and AussieGecko that the PS3 will have more exclusives in 2011 than the Wii or 360... or something.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3879752

Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

Well the point is that Nintendo isn't that far behind the other first parties, or even the third parties. Note that taken individually, each developer has put out fewer IPs each generation. So singling out Nintendo is wrong, since it's not just them.

Yes, but Nintendo also publishes games. There's nothing stopping them (the most successful gaming company) from investing into new IPs from other developers. Demon's Souls was pretty much broken before Sony Japan came in and fixed everything. Modnation Racer's wouldn't have ever existed if Sony hadn't thrown money at United Front. Little Big Planet wouldn't even exist if Phil Harrison didn't take in Media Molecule and finance the project.

The list goes on and on. Sony have put legitimate effort into financing and co developing great new projects and they've even gone out of their way to help support Third Parties with games like Bayonetta and helping small  developers by creating the Phyre Engine (a free to use game engine, now being used by Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Gust, Compile Heart, Thatgamecompany and Codemasters). Microsoft have done similar things.

Nintendo have been very successful this gen, I'd expect this kind of support coming from them, instead of the Third Place console.


That still is a different thing than making a new IP. Plus Nintendo has been working with developers when asked for. The problem is that few have been willing to make games for their systems in order for Nintendo to work with them.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Around the Network
LordTheNightKnight said:


There aren't any qualifiers, were talking about the Wii and not the DS, that's pretty much it. Every point I made was true and still stands, if I was to start listing off games that haven't been released yet or have only released in Japan, then my list would be much larger.

A new IP is vital when introducing new experiences. Despite what many people on this site may think, Mario Galaxy plays alot like Mario Sunshine, which played alot like Mario 64. Mario Kart Wii plays alot like Mario Kart 64 and Double Dash. Super Smash Bros. Brawl was just not as good as the last games in the series due to the controller. We have 8 Mario Partys and they lost their shine after the 4th. Twilight Princess is a port, Pikmin 1 2 are ports, Mario Tennis is a port and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat is a port.

You can tweak thing's here and there, but every Nintendo game stay's essentially the same. Nintendo are boring, they have such great talent and yet we see the same game over and over again.  I expect better from the greatest developers in the world.


What you are describing is sequels that don't change much, not because they are the same IPs.

Oh, and you can't judge Brawl due to one controler option. You can use the GC controller for that as well. Didn't you know that?

And your contention that Nintendo is boring loses validity, as that is a personal opinion, and not a good reason to insist they make new IPs.

Nintendo shouldn't create sequels that don't change much then, as I said before, every gen I expect new experiences and games that are similar to each other are not new experiences. 

I shouldn't have to spend more money on an extra accessory to fix the controls in Brawl, they are horrible on the Wiimote.

My opinion is shared by many people, just like the people who wrote the article this thread is based on and just because it's an opinion, it doesn't make it less true. Nintendo have not delivered this gen software wise, they have made no effort to fix this problem, they have taken advantage over their nostalgia addicted userbase and introduced the same product over and over again except in different skins.

Third Party support is lacking, yet Nintendo make no effort to fix that problem. Core software has been lacking and yet Nintendo have only now started to fix that problem. New projects and ideas are lacking and Nintendo have no reason to search for them. Being successful has made Nintendo greedy, there sick of being at the bottom and their willing to do anything to stay on top. The fans can keep on deluding themselves, but Nintendo have become the new Sony/Microsoft/Apple hybrid and they don't deserve half the devotion they get.



Bet with Conegamer and AussieGecko that the PS3 will have more exclusives in 2011 than the Wii or 360... or something.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3879752

Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:


There aren't any qualifiers, were talking about the Wii and not the DS, that's pretty much it. Every point I made was true and still stands, if I was to start listing off games that haven't been released yet or have only released in Japan, then my list would be much larger.

A new IP is vital when introducing new experiences. Despite what many people on this site may think, Mario Galaxy plays alot like Mario Sunshine, which played alot like Mario 64. Mario Kart Wii plays alot like Mario Kart 64 and Double Dash. Super Smash Bros. Brawl was just not as good as the last games in the series due to the controller. We have 8 Mario Partys and they lost their shine after the 4th. Twilight Princess is a port, Pikmin 1 2 are ports, Mario Tennis is a port and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat is a port.

You can tweak thing's here and there, but every Nintendo game stay's essentially the same. Nintendo are boring, they have such great talent and yet we see the same game over and over again.  I expect better from the greatest developers in the world.


What you are describing is sequels that don't change much, not because they are the same IPs.

Oh, and you can't judge Brawl due to one controler option. You can use the GC controller for that as well. Didn't you know that?

And your contention that Nintendo is boring loses validity, as that is a personal opinion, and not a good reason to insist they make new IPs.

Nintendo shouldn't create sequels that don't change much then, as I said before, every gen I expect new experiences and games that are similar to each other are not new experiences. (1)

I shouldn't have to spend more money on an extra accessory to fix the controls in Brawl, they are horrible on the Wiimote.(2)

My opinion is shared by many people, just like the people who wrote the article this thread is based on and just because it's an opinion, it doesn't make it less true.(3) Nintendo have not delivered this gen software wise(4), they have made no effort to fix this problem, they have taken advantage over their nostalgia addicted userbase and introduced the same product over and over again except in different skins. (5)

Third Party support is lacking, yet Nintendo make no effort to fix that problem.(6) Core software has been lacking and yet Nintendo have only now started to fix that problem.(6) New projects and ideas are lacking and Nintendo have no reason to search for them. (7) Being successful has made Nintendo greedy, there sick of being at the bottom and their willing to do anything to stay on top. (8) The fans can keep on deluding themselves, but Nintendo have become the new Sony/Microsoft/Apple hybrid and they don't deserve half the devotion they get.(9)


1. Nintendo is not the only company that does that, so why are you singling them out?

2. Excuse me? You think I'm stating you buy that for that one game? The GC controller would also be for BC with GC games on the Wii, as well as working with VC games. Now even if you don't personally do that, you still shouldn't judge Brawl as though the option isn't there.

3. A subjective opinion cannot be true or false, so claiming it's one or the other is not a valid comment. And just because others share it doesn't mean another other than others share it, and from the sales of these games you are bashing on, you are part of a vocal minority.

4. No, they just haven't made games that pleas you personally, or others, but again, sales show you are a vocal minority.

5. You can't take advantage in the way you are describing unles that is what the people want. You're acting as though it's wrong to cater to their tastes.

6. Bullshit. You call being willing to market Monster Hunter 3 in the west, and even publishing it in Europe, doing nothing? And that's just the most famous thing. Nintendo has been talking to third parties about the Wii, since the beginning. So don't tell me they've been doing nothing.

6. You obviously didn't pay attention to the flood of those in the first two years of the Wii.

7. If there is no reason, then why are you blaming Nintendo for not doing it? Shouldn't you be blaming the lack of reason to do so?

8. God, it's this crap again. Nintendo can't get back on top by doing what you want. They tried that already, and it put them in third place.

9. No, you're just interpreting their actions that way. Nintendo's idea is to combat disinterest in gaming outside your group, and that doesn't make them greedy. It makes them good businessmen.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight said:
Doobie_wop said:
LordTheNightKnight said:

Well the point is that Nintendo isn't that far behind the other first parties, or even the third parties. Note that taken individually, each developer has put out fewer IPs each generation. So singling out Nintendo is wrong, since it's not just them.

Yes, but Nintendo also publishes games. There's nothing stopping them (the most successful gaming company) from investing into new IPs from other developers. Demon's Souls was pretty much broken before Sony Japan came in and fixed everything. Modnation Racer's wouldn't have ever existed if Sony hadn't thrown money at United Front. Little Big Planet wouldn't even exist if Phil Harrison didn't take in Media Molecule and finance the project.

The list goes on and on. Sony have put legitimate effort into financing and co developing great new projects and they've even gone out of their way to help support Third Parties with games like Bayonetta and helping small  developers by creating the Phyre Engine (a free to use game engine, now being used by Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Gust, Compile Heart, Thatgamecompany and Codemasters). Microsoft have done similar things.

Nintendo have been very successful this gen, I'd expect this kind of support coming from them, instead of the Third Place console.


That still is a different thing than making a new IP. Plus Nintendo has been working with developers when asked for. The problem is that few have been willing to make games for their systems in order for Nintendo to work with them.

Your ignoring the major point's in my posts, it could be because I've written way to much or you haven't got much of an argument supporting Nintendo. I'll make it simple, Nintendo aren't trying hard enough.

It's up to Nintendo to prove that their system is a viable platform for Third Party software. The platform has it's advantages and disadvantages, but so far, only the disadvantages have been showing. Why should a game like Red Steel 2 be made when it sell's like shit? Why Should No More Heroes 2 be made when it sell's like shit? Why should any Third Party game made exclusively for the Wii be made it it sell's like shit.

Every time a Third Party publisher makes an effort, they get shot down and I can understand why they don't want to get back up. Developing for the Wii can't be easy, because it's not as simple as creating a PS2 game and chucking it on the system, every time motion control's come into play it end's up sucking, even on the best of games (No More Heroes). I would have thought Nintendo would have stepped in at some point and provided some support to Third Party's so that they can understand the hardware better. Sony did it with PS3, it was difficult to work with, so Sony sent out some development support, made a free to use engine and updated and cut the price on their development kits. These thing's obviously help Sony, but the extra Third Party Support has been noted and now publishers are supporting Sony. Nintendo should do something similar.

I've obviously ranted to much and if I haven't got my point across yet then there isn't much more I can do. Don't take what I've said as anything against you, it's just a nice way to vent without causing any trouble.



Bet with Conegamer and AussieGecko that the PS3 will have more exclusives in 2011 than the Wii or 360... or something.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3879752

Nintendo new IPs on GameCube:

Pikmin

GiFTPiA (Japan only)

Eternal Darkness

Baten Kaitos

Geist

Chibi-Robo!

Odama

Nintendo new IPs on Wii:

Wii series

Endless Ocean

Disaster: Day of Crisis (Japan and PAL only)

Captain Rainbow (Japan only)

Tact of Magic (Japan only)

Zangeki no REGINLEIV (Japan only)

And-Kensaku (Japan only)

Xenoblade (Japan only, so far)

This does not include WiiWare games, and there are still games being developed for the Wii. One may not say that Nintendo is not making new IPs, that they are not bringing them all to the west is a different matter.

"Why Should No More Heroes 2 be made when it sell's like shit?"

The better question would be why NMH1 sold 480000 units, while NMH2 sold only 140000 units.



"Every time a Third Party publisher makes an effort, they get shot down and I can understand why they don't want to get back up"

That's also bullshit. Activition and Capcom have been doing well, for one thing, and Ubisoft is doing almost as good. It's the crap about "this is our big test game" that get no damn marketing that fall.

In short, they shoot themselves down so they don't have to make any further efforts, and you understanding why just means you're a sucker for their schemes.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs