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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why are some Nintendo fans angry with Move?

RolStoppable said:
Porcupine_I said:
RolStoppable said:

Threads about upcoming PS3 games (big ones or ones that are expected to be big) usually have not much that trouble to reach a good amount of posts within a couple of weeks because Sony fans love the hype more than any other group on this forum. Move isn't just a new peripheral with one game, there have already been about a dozen of games shown off, so there should be plenty of material to discuss. I drew my conclusion that there isn't much interest in Move's games from the two aforementioned points.

In my very first response to you I said that the problem is twosided. It's Sony fans vehemently denying that Move is a copy or Nintendo fans trying to rub it in. The argument isn't always initiated by the same side, so both groups are to blame.

sorry for the late answer, i have been away.

 but i believe the argument has reached the stage of repeating itself anyway.

 in the end you said it right, it's all about what we choose to believe.

but at least you made a strong point for the sony fans by stating they are not as excited about motion controls as some nintendo fans claim them to be, by calling them hypocrites now that the move was announced! but in reality it seems the majority really didn't want any Motion controls after all.

I think it is of importance to note that excitement about Move and excitement about Move's current games isn't the same thing, because even if someone likes motion controls and doesn't care which system the game is on, what has been shown so far isn't anything special. Another important point is that the vocal minority that hypes Move for its superior technology isn't exactly excited about the games shown so far either.

The motive behind praising Move in its current form (which means everything we know about it so far) is most likely the wish that it slows down or stops Nintendo's success with the Wii (the same thing applies to Natal and the hopes that are put in it). It's just like a game that gets hyped not because the person who enthusiastically talks about it actually wants to buy it, but rather what it could do for the success of the console it is on.

And the motive behind criticizing the move is the wish that the games will stay nothing special?

But i agree, all those sports and party games don't look anything special. Not really anything to get excited about. Unfortunately that's the games that sell on Wii, and i am afraid that is what Natal and Move are aimed at. Sony and Microsoft don't need to aim for the hardcore, they already have the Hardcore, they want the casuals now.



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

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RolStoppable said:
Porcupine_I said:
RolStoppable said:

I think it is of importance to note that excitement about Move and excitement about Move's current games isn't the same thing, because even if someone likes motion controls and doesn't care which system the game is on, what has been shown so far isn't anything special. Another important point is that the vocal minority that hypes Move for its superior technology isn't exactly excited about the games shown so far either.

The motive behind praising Move in its current form (which means everything we know about it so far) is most likely the wish that it slows down or stops Nintendo's success with the Wii (the same thing applies to Natal and the hopes that are put in it). It's just like a game that gets hyped not because the person who enthusiastically talks about it actually wants to buy it, but rather what it could do for the success of the console it is on.

And the motive behind criticizing the move is the wish that the games will stay nothing special?

But i agree, all those sports and party games don't look anything special. Not really anything to get excited about. Unfortunately that's the games that sell on Wii, and i am afraid that is what Natal and Move are aimed at. Sony and Microsoft don't need to aim for the hardcore, they already have the Hardcore, they want the casuals now.

There's not much of a reason to believe that Move will offer something special in the future. Quite the opposite is the case, there are many reasons to expect Move to flop spectacularly in sales and also in terms of the games it will get. Some that come to mind:

1) As a peripheral, there won't be a lot of third party support, much less good one. Sony supposedly has great relationships with third parties, but if you look at the entire Eyetoy/PS Eye library and the support of the Sixaxis (the standard controller), nobody should get his hopes up.
2) Without good third party support, the burden to drive the installed base lies on first party games. Now who really thinks that Sony will put their best developers on Move games aside from optional functions that have pretty much no effect on the core gameplay?
3) So the hopes rest on games with good tacked on motion controls, because there will hardly be any big projects specifically developed for Move.
4) The current lineup looks like Wii third party games (not graphically, but the kind of quality they offer). Which brings me to my next point.

It's commonly said that sports and party games are eaten up by the "casuals". Then someone quickly names Carnival Games, Game Party or Deca Sports and concludes that these are the types of games that are sure bets on the Wii (to prevent possible confusion: you didn't say that, I am talking about a general observation here). Regarding that I must ask: What's the batting average for these kinds of games? Then you look at a long list of sports and party games on the Wii and realize that there are dozens upon dozens of such games with abysmal sales with only a few posting impressive numbers.

Third parties flooding the Wii with these cheaply made games got so bad that retailers told publishers that they wouldn't stock such titles anymore, because they do NOT sell. Move and Natal look as if Sony and Microsoft make the same mistake as third parties on the Wii. They hope to make some easy profits, but they actually do not understand what the people who they try to sell to want, be it "hardcore" or "casual" gamers.

That being said, you can still give Move and Natal the benefit of the doubt, but more than that doesn't seem justified at this point in time.

you know, you could have saved yourself all that typing by answering my initial question with "I want Move to fail"



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

RolStoppable said:
Porcupine_I said:

you know, you could have saved yourself all that typing by answering my initial question with "I want Move to fail"

I also want Sony and Microsoft to leave the console business, but that doesn't mean that I can't put up a good argument.

If you disagree with what I said in my previous post, you could say why Move will possibly get better support than what I outlined.

oh no, please don't try to get me in some kind of Pachteresque prediction contest.

i was really only trying to get behind all this sudden hostility towards the move in general. i actually used to think the Nintendo fans where the most laid back fans on the board, since they had no need to argue much before, with the immense success in hard- and software sales Nintendo still enjoys to date, while the Sony and Microsoft fans kept the battle going about their consoles.

but suddenly the move came along and now are they behaving like stirred up beehive and it's not a pretty sight to see. If they are really that happy with heir choice of console, i don't see a reason to act so insecure. it's just something i try to understand.

 

 



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

RolStoppable said:
Porcupine_I said:

oh no, please don't try to get me in some kind of Pachteresque prediction contest.

i was really only trying to get behind all this sudden hostility towards the move in general. i actually used to think the Nintendo fans where the most laid back fans on the board, since they had no need to argue much before, with the immense success in hard- and software sales Nintendo still enjoys to date, while the Sony and Microsoft fans kept the battle going about their consoles.

but suddenly the move came along and now are they behaving like stirred up beehive and it's not a pretty sight to see. If they are really that happy with heir choice of console, i don't see a reason to act so insecure. it's just something i try to understand.

Is there really so much insecurity? I've seen a few guys attacking the Move occassionally, but most Nintendo fans don't make the impression that they are afraid of Move. Because honestly, the games shown so far aren't better than anything on the Wii and the reactions from the gaming media were describing many things that were wrong with these games.

Of course Move triggered a lot of discussion, because suddenly the Wii was back in the console war again. Similar to Natal, there were threads predicting that huge trouble is ahead for Nintendo now that the HD consoles got motion too. Now if something looks like it has no chance to be a threat, but it's still presented that way, it pisses people off. Nintendo fans were angry at analysts for predicting the Wii's downfall too, but over time they just laughed about this idiocy. It's possible that the same happens the closer we get to Move's launch.

Ultimately I think the best way to end this here is to turn the tables around, because that usually helps people to understand the others' point of view. Why were Sony fans so angry with Forza 3 for such a long time? Why was there so much hostility on these forums even though Forza 3 never was a real threat? Or why were 360 fans so angry with Killzone 2?

I should have brought that up much sooner, would have saved us a lot of time.

Oh, come on! Listen to yourself! You keep saying the same things again and again "the games are nothing special" even though i am not even arguing that point with you! You really making it sound like you constantly need reassuring yourself. Usually that is interpreted as insecurity.

 

but you have another good point! The Sony fans felt probably like Forza was stealing Gran Turismo from them, and in turn the Microsoft fans feel like Killzone was stealing Halo, and now the Nintendo fans feel like Sony is stealing their motion controls.

Please note, i only said they feel that way, i did not say it is going to happen.

 

 



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

RolStoppable said:
Porcupine_I said:
RolStoppable said:

Is there really so much insecurity? I've seen a few guys attacking the Move occassionally, but most Nintendo fans don't make the impression that they are afraid of Move. Because honestly, the games shown so far aren't better than anything on the Wii and the reactions from the gaming media were describing many things that were wrong with these games.

Of course Move triggered a lot of discussion, because suddenly the Wii was back in the console war again. Similar to Natal, there were threads predicting that huge trouble is ahead for Nintendo now that the HD consoles got motion too. Now if something looks like it has no chance to be a threat, but it's still presented that way, it pisses people off. Nintendo fans were angry at analysts for predicting the Wii's downfall too, but over time they just laughed about this idiocy. It's possible that the same happens the closer we get to Move's launch.

Ultimately I think the best way to end this here is to turn the tables around, because that usually helps people to understand the others' point of view. Why were Sony fans so angry with Forza 3 for such a long time? Why was there so much hostility on these forums even though Forza 3 never was a real threat? Or why were 360 fans so angry with Killzone 2?

I should have brought that up much sooner, would have saved us a lot of time.

Oh, come on! Listen to yourself! You keep saying the same things again and again "the games are nothing special" even though i am not even arguing that point with you! You really making it sound like you constantly need reassuring yourself. Usually that is interpreted as insecurity.

 

but you have another good point! The Sony fans felt probably like Forza was stealing Gran Turismo from them, and in turn the Microsoft fans feel like Killzone was stealing Halo, and now the Nintendo fans feel like Sony is stealing their motion controls.

Please note, i only said they feel that way, i did not say it is going to happen.

I think am insecure about there being insecurity on the behalf of Nintendo fans. I don't want to believe that, so I keep mentioning the Move games, because they really shouldn't be the cause of insecurity, in case there is some.

But no, you misunderstood my point. It's not about stealing someone else's stuff, it's about people claiming victory where there is no victory to claim and that makes others angry. There were 360 fans touting Forza 3's superiority just like there were Sony fans who claimed that Killzone 2 is a much better game than any FPS on the 360 without any substantial proof to back it up, but rather opinion passed off as fact. That's what caused the most controversy. But are the people who disagreed insecure because they said that the competition first has to prove that it is an actual threat before others claim it to be one?

Are there really that many Sony fans claiming victory? I thought you even proved that there is not even much interest in the Move from their side at all? and yes, you are right, there shouldn't be any insecurity, but it nevertheless is present. **

I clearly remember the video when Sony presented the move with Resident Evil, and the guy where holding a dualshock with one hand. i can't vouch if there were a lot of Nintendo fans, but people were certainly laughing then, because it didn't have a "nunchuck" even suggesting that it needs one.

 

**actually i think there shouldn't be a console war at all, because in this gen everyone should have enough reason to be happy with their console, but that is beside the point now.

 



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

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@ghost of runbang Ninty is making a new cotroller with motion+ function already in, IMO this in a direct response to MOVE & Natal

@rolstoppable, I like how you said MOVE needs good 3rd party support. N u are right, but Wii has terrible 3rd party support. most of the games are ports with tacked on motion controls on gimped versions of the HD games. at least your honest about your bias, i hope that MS & Sony never leave the biz. I dont want to have a console that isnt geared to someone like me
(I love my fighting games)



Porcupine_I said:

but you have another good point! The Sony fans felt probably like Forza was stealing Gran Turismo from them, and in turn the Microsoft fans feel like Killzone was stealing Halo, and now the Nintendo fans feel like Sony is stealing their motion controls.

Wait, what?

I'm pretty sure that isn't how it goes. It's more like, it's insulting, or annoying to even compare, or at least pretend that Killzone 2 is on the same plane as Halo (which most probably prefer), or Forza with GT, or Sony's motion games to Nintendo's. That isn't insecurity, is it?

Here, let me give you an example. Let me say something ridiculous, like "The Nokia N-Gage is better than the DS!" Now, imagine half of the forum sharing this sentiment, and repeating it all over the place. I imagine some will dismiss these people as not even worth arguing with, but others will do their best to fight the mob, as inevitable as it is (often resulting in anger or at least annoyance).

Rather than, "Uh oh, they might have a better game," the sentiment is more like, "What the fuck are they talking about, that game sucks!" (exaggerated, of course, but something like this)



oniyide said:
@ghost of runbang Ninty is making a new cotroller with motion+ function already in, IMO this in a direct response to MOVE & Natal

Link?  I've seen a third party controller like that, but I've heard nothing of an official controller with Motion Plus built in.



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theRepublic said:
oniyide said:
@ghost of runbang Ninty is making a new cotroller with motion+ function already in, IMO this in a direct response to MOVE & Natal

Link?  I've seen a third party controller like that, but I've heard nothing of an official controller with Motion Plus built in.

http://video.ign.com/dor/articles/965543/ign-daily-fix-/videos/thefix_spc_052010.html



Why the hell wouldn't Nintendo start to sell Wiimotes with M+ included???

It sure as hell isn't a respons to Move but rather doing so that when people buy new Wiimotes they won't need to buy any M+ addons.



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