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Forums - Gaming - Anyone else a bit offended at claims Heavy Rain's writing is Oscar Worthy?

Khuutra on 16 May 2010
LordTheNightKnight said:
Khuutra said:
Some of you might say "but isn't quality subjective?". Yes and no. There are subjective opinions, but when enough gather, the fact that a lot of people have those opinions is an objective fact. So those turn into quality standards. When it comes to the middle, there is some disagreement (such as the notion of a "critic proof" film), but at both ends of the bell curve, the standards are clear.
I reject this notion outright. The objective fact of a mean collection of subjective opinions does not equate to an objective standard of quality, especially since those objective facts of mean collections of subjective opinion do not remain the same over time. In point of fact, do you realize how universally panned Moby Dick was at the time of its publishing and for years afterward?

That just proves time can change standards, not that standards are invalid at the moment. Even if Heavy Rain becomes greatdue to changing standards, it is still not great now.

It suggests that there are no particular objective standards of quality that different works attempt to fulfill, just expectations of the people who define a given dialogue. If you're going to pretend that there is an objective standard to whic Heavy Rain can be held (and found wanting) ten you can't acknowledge that this standard is itself malleable, almost mercurial, because that defies the idea of objectivity in said standard.



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LordTheNightKnight on 16 May 2010
Khuutra said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Khuutra said:
Some of you might say "but isn't quality subjective?". Yes and no. There are subjective opinions, but when enough gather, the fact that a lot of people have those opinions is an objective fact. So those turn into quality standards. When it comes to the middle, there is some disagreement (such as the notion of a "critic proof" film), but at both ends of the bell curve, the standards are clear.
I reject this notion outright. The objective fact of a mean collection of subjective opinions does not equate to an objective standard of quality, especially since those objective facts of mean collections of subjective opinion do not remain the same over time. In point of fact, do you realize how universally panned Moby Dick was at the time of its publishing and for years afterward?

That just proves time can change standards, not that standards are invalid at the moment. Even if Heavy Rain becomes greatdue to changing standards, it is still not great now.

It suggests that there are no particular objective standards of quality that different works attempt to fulfill, just expectations of the people who define a given dialogue. If you're going to pretend that there is an objective standard to whic Heavy Rain can be held (and found wanting) ten you can't acknowledge that this standard is itself malleable, almost mercurial, because that defies the idea of objectivity in said standard.

Well I hope we can agree to disagree, and leavt it at that.

But in terms of a mystery, it's objectively bad. The clues are poor, nonsencial, and it suffers from the idiot plot that turned me off of horror movies.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Kenryoku_Maxis on 16 May 2010

In some ways, I kind of wish the game would just win an oscar. It would just show how pointless the whole thing is and how they're just handing out oscars to only the most hyped and flashy movies (and as a result games) out there. Not anything that deserves actual merit.

IE: Every single 'Animation' Award going to a CGI film and every 'Best Picture' film going to the most hyped and advertised movie of the year.



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S.T.A.G.E. on 16 May 2010

The Heavy Rain story is by no means Oscar worthy. It was thrilling and emotional though.



Khuutra on 16 May 2010
LordTheNightKnight said:
Khuutra said:

It suggests that there are no particular objective standards of quality that different works attempt to fulfill, just expectations of the people who define a given dialogue. If you're going to pretend that there is an objective standard to whic Heavy Rain can be held (and found wanting) ten you can't acknowledge that this standard is itself malleable, almost mercurial, because that defies the idea of objectivity in said standard.

Well I hope we can agree to disagree, and leavt it at that.

But in terms of a mystery, it's objectively bad. The clues are poor, nonsencial, and it suffers from the idiot plot that turned me off of horror movies.

I will admit that this is not the time or the place for the argument, and I apologize if I come across as being confrontational.

I can't comment on Heavy Rain, as I have not played/watched it.



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Helios on 16 May 2010
LordTheNightKnight said:

Some of you might say "but isn't quality subjective?". Yes and no. There are subjective opinions, but when enough gather, the fact that a lot of people have those opinions is an objective fact. So those turn into quality standards. When it comes to the middle, there is some disagreement (such as the notion of a "critic proof" film), but at both ends of the bell curve, the standards are clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

And as we all know; 2+2=5

Further, can you accurately judge a games 'story' without playing it? As an inquiry into the field of ludology would tell you, it is an ontologically and fundamentally indefensible position. A game's story is created through performance - just like a play - and the players actions, the meaning behind them, is what makes games art. A game is not a narrative, it's an experience.

As an addendum; 'is Heavy Rain a game to begin with?' is a perfectly valid question in the context of this thread.



MaxwellGT2000 on 16 May 2010
Reasonable said:
I'm not bothered or offended assuming such claims are made - heck, didn't some gaming journos (with more enthusiam than knowledge it would seem) claim GTAIV was as good as The Godfather.

Personally, I'm with Ebert in his recent question of why it matters? Games are clearly miles away from producing writing and direction of the quality of films and particularly novels.

Your point is valid, though, in that if people really do want to see writing, etc. really taken seriously then they're going to have to up their critical view of the medium and demand much higher levels of quality.

That said some parts of HR were reasonably well written, although most was only average.

Unless you play an Itoi game with proper translation



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forevercloud3000 on 16 May 2010

I think the writing technically would be....if the Animation and voice acting was only on par consistantly throughout the game. In many instances both drop the ball. I think its the fact that the game really does succeed at gripping one's emotions and immersing the player that makes it oscar worthy. Honestly "Swing Vote" is an Oscar worthy film much more so than "The Avatar" because it really tugged at my tear ducts. Avatar had everything on paper right to be great, but simply wasn't to me. Thats how I come to see Swing Vote as Art. I feel it's the same with a game like Heavy Rain to me.



      

      

      

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LordTheNightKnight on 16 May 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
In some ways, I kind of wish the game would just win an oscar. It would just show how pointless the whole thing is and how they're just handing out oscars to only the most hyped and flashy movies (and as a result games) out there. Not anything that deserves actual merit.

IE: Every single 'Animation' Award going to a CGI film and every 'Best Picture' film going to the most hyped and advertised movie of the year.

Sprited Away got the animation Oscar, so there it something.

As for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum comment, you didn'gt read my comment properly. My comment was that even though it's a bunch of people's opinions that Batman & Robin is crap and The Godfather is awesome, it is their opinions. That people have an opionion is an objective fact, and Heavy Rain does not objectively meet the standards of anywhere near The Godfather. Although it seems most of the comments here agree with that, so as I stated in the first part of the OP, you people aren't who I am calling out.

BTW, in case anyone wants to bring up me not having a PS3, I've stated before I would get one, just I can't afford it right now, and so far it's just Disgaea 3 and the Ratchet & Clank games that interest me the most.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

makingmusic476 on 16 May 2010

Do I think the claims are silly?  Yes.  Are the claims brazen enough to offend me?  No.