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Matrix 4’ Officially a Go With Keanu Reeves, Carrie-Anne Moss and Lana Wachowski

Forums - Movies Discussion - Matrix 4’ Officially a Go With Keanu Reeves, Carrie-Anne Moss and Lana Wachowski

Hiku said:
EricHiggin said:

Neo basically has to have powers inside what's known or thought to be the real world, if the dream inside a dream plot is going to work. Neo mentions he can feel the machines in the real world and is somehow tied to them in a non physical manner, even though that shouldn't be possible. This already leaves the door open to the real world just being another level in the Matrix.

It also means each level doesn't play by the same rules. In the base Matrix he can fly and stop bullets, but can't stop other programs or people by just thinking it, where as he can in the real world like with the sentinels. Both levels have different rules. Which would be super important to bringing back Trinity as a 'real' physical person, since it's explained to Neo by Morpheus early on, that if you die in the Matrix, you die in the real world, because "the body cannot live without the mind". This would mean Trinity is dead for good, unless in the thought to be real world level, due to the different rules, you may not be dead for good in whatever the actual real world is, and potentially can be brought back.

This also would leave another massive question. Is the humans vs machines backstory even true? Since the humans are enslaved by the machines in the base Matrix, who is enslaving the machines then in the thought to be real world Matrix?

Something else to ask about the way in which the Matrix trilogy plays out is, is it really the best thing for the humans and did Neo actually make any major choices? The Oracle and Architect tell Neo the problem is choice, but throughout the movie, he's constantly manipulated by the Oracle to do what she wants. He's even manipulated by everyone else who's been manipulated by the Oracle to do what she wants. She just so happens to be a program built by the Architect that's apparently helping the humans now, and even though they say choice is the major problem in the Matrix and why it eventually fails, the Oracle really doesn't allow Neo to make to many big choices. She's constantly manipulating him to go down the path she wants. She tells him things like "knowing you're the one is like knowing you're in love", and "everything that has a beginning has an end", which cause him to make major decisions based on her advice. What he believes in is constantly based on what she tells him, even though some seems useful and true and some seems useless and nonsense. When she tells him, 'I promise, as soon as you're finished eating that cookie, you'll feel right as rain', what happens afterwards is just the opposite.

If it is a Matrix inside a Matrix, I couldn't help but wonder are the machines using and manipulating the humans to get out of the real world Matrix? Maybe the humans haven't actually been given much of a choice all along.

Neo having powers in the real world does raise the question if that was really the real world, or another layer of the Matrix.
Though I don't know if such a convoluted twist would work well, 17 years after the original. 

On the other hand, I don't have high expectations for the story anyway. Matrix was the most interesting to me after the first film, when speculating about the many different things that could happen. I wasn't particularly intrigued with the way the story of the next two films played out, for the most part.
But there are some plot points they could flesh out or clarify that would be interesting, such as the Oracle's story that you mentioned.

I wonder if they'll use CGI to have Neo and Trinity look young again, or if they'll look older.

To me I can't really think of anything else that would fit other than multiple Matrix levels or a prequel, maybe just one movie about Morpheus and Trinity searching for Neo. I'd assume between makeup and a little CGI they could get it right, unless they all look older in a sequel. I'm not a big fan of the second and third movie either. The second is ok but third not so great.

Heck it could even be a sequel and prequel in one actually. If they used the Matrix within a Matrix plot, they could have the 'real world' get rebooted as well, leading to everything starting over again from a point where Morpheus exists. If the information about what happened last time can be somehow passed to Morpheus, things can play out much differently this time around leading to a completely different ending. It would basically be a reboot, by using a reboot, but in a legitimate way through the plot.



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Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
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Hiku said:

but you also reprimand @Ka-pi96 for not knowing Kenshin

And for the record, I do know Kenshin. I've just never heard of samurai x.

Oh... and I got 43 notifications from this mention? Huh?



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I only liked the first movie for its metaphors and action. I don't like the lore of this series that much and it just seems to get more convoluted over time. I imagine a lot of retconning will be required to get these characters back together. 



EricHiggin said:

To me I can't really think of anything else that would fit other than multiple Matrix levels or a prequel, maybe just one movie about Morpheus and Trinity searching for Neo. I'd assume between makeup and a little CGI they could get it right, unless they all look older in a sequel. I'm not a big fan of the second and third movie either. The second is ok but third not so great.

Heck it could even be a sequel and prequel in one actually. If they used the Matrix within a Matrix plot, they could have the 'real world' get rebooted as well, leading to everything starting over again from a point where Morpheus exists. If the information about what happened last time can be somehow passed to Morpheus, things can play out much differently this time around leading to a completely different ending. It would basically be a reboot, by using a reboot, but in a legitimate way through the plot.

A Matrix within a Matrix, a reboot within a reboot, and a sequel within a prequel?

Ka-pi96 said:
Hiku said:

but you also reprimand @Ka-pi96 for not knowing Kenshin

And for the record, I do know Kenshin. I've just never heard of samurai x.

Oh... and I got 43 notifications from this mention? Huh?



Hiku said:
DonFerrari said:

Samurai X kinemaban is a material done to tell the same history on the movie, so it isn't neither sequel nor reboot.


The picture I posted wasn't from Kinema-ban (2012). However, Kinema-ban is an alternate version of the original manga. Characters meet in a totally different situation than they do in the first series.
Which is why it's referred to as a reboot, or a reinvention.







The movie you're referring to is a live-action film that came out after this manga began.

What I was talking about though, and the picture I attached to my previous post, is from the Hokkaido manga, which is a direct sequel, and began in December 2017.



"Following the events of Rurouni Kenshin, an older Kenshin has settled down with his wife Kaoru"

This series is by no means over, with new chapters still coming out in 2019.

DonFerrari said:

Gundam is a series not one book so not sure why you are trying to fit it in here.

Because you made a point of how "Dragonball anime stayed done for 20 years". So anime/manga that go on and on would be the opposite of that.
Though also because some of those Gundam stories do get sequels or reboots/a re-telling after they reach an ending.

Gundam SEED for example was written as a self contained story that was supposed to end where it ended. But due to its popularity, and the sale of toys/models, Sunrise and Bandai decided they wanted a sequel. And a prevalent opinion among fans was that it should have ended with the original story. Same comment you made about Matrix 1.
Although the difference is that at the end of Gundam SEED the antagonists had been defeated. At the end of Matrix 1, the antagonists (except for the agents) still remained a problem that needed to be resolved. And the writers planned for it to be a trilogy from the start.

DonFerrari said:
Sure you can go on, and still that wouldn't be the norm of manga, it is with several of the stuff you put something that started happening couple of years ago.

It's not the norm for movies either. But due to the format of feature films (120 minutes or so), one part isn't enough to match the length of anime/manga with multiple arcs.
Though 'norm' wasn't what you originally said, but "once something is done is done."

And that definitely doesn't apply to neither Kenshin nor Dragonball, or many other popular anime/manga series.

DonFerrari said:
The stories that have been going for 20 years haven't been finished and aren't being streched, so no sense in mixing them together.

Stories that go on consistently for 20+ years are commonly being stretched. And take that much longer to reach their (temporary?) ending. Because they don't have time to write as much of the story they want to write, due to publishers pressuring them for new chapter consistently. So they instead write what they're able to come up with in that short time frame.

Akira Toriyama began writing Majin Buu arc chapters before he even thought about Majin Buu. He started writing simple things like Gohan going to school and playing baseball, and stopping bank robbers, while he was thinking up the more important plot points.
That's not an ideal way of writing. But Shounen Jump wanted their weekly chapters, etc.
If they had given him time to breathe, the story would naturally have been shorter.

Some of these long running stories were supposed to end much earlier than they did. Dragonball as an example again, was originally supposed to end when they first collected all dragonballs.

Fuyuto Takeda: And then serialization began, but from the beginning, how much of the story had you already planned?
Toriyama:I hadn’t thought it up at all. I figured it would probably end in about a year, and I had only really prepared storyboards for three chapters.
Dragon Ball, which I planned on lasting one year when I started, has now been in serialization so long that it’s surpassed Dr. Slump! I feel both happy and scared…

What was originally intended to be a story that would span 50 chapters or so, became 519. And now it has an additional 48 more, and still going.

DonFerrari said:

Akira is even funnier because you are admiting it isn't really getting a sequel, the movie just told a part of the story and didn't continue.

No one knows what the new Akira anime will be yet.
However, I said that the anime didn't cover 1/4 of the story. Not that it didn't end. It did.
It ends with the same battle as the final manga battle, but the road there had been different from the manga. But more notably than what was told differently is how much of the manga it skipped, since it skipped a lot more than it changed.

If it ends up being a continuation of the 1988 film, then it would be a new story. Code Geass for example recently did that this year, 11 years after it had originally ended.
Whatever it ends up being though, it's a noteworthy anime to mention. As with the new Matrix.

Also, I didn't make fun of anything you said. And I planned on continuing to be courteous in my replies. But since you unnecessarily decided to throw in "its even funnier", do you also find it funny that you not only gave two of the worst possible examples of manga that were "done", but also reprimanded @Ka-pi96 for not knowing Kenshin to mean he "probably knows very little anime/manga", when you were oblivious to Kenshin having an ongoing sequel. Even after I said so and posted a picture.

Being mistaken is fine. But starting to be condescending for no reason is usually not a good idea in a discussion.

Eeeerrr I'm sorry if you understood it as being condescending. It was more like "how can you not know one of the best mangas over there". And as he said later he know about rurouni kenshin but seems like he just didn't associate with the X scar (not sure how many countries used the name Samurai X, just like Saint Seiya vs Les Chevaliers du Zodiac).

I consider kinema-ban as a comemorative issue, since it tells a very summarized version, but if you want to call it a reboot no problem. The sequel had new released? Because I saw something like 3 chapters and then had the arrest of the author so I had basically erased the sequel from memory.

Call it misinformation but at least in Brazil what we got was that Matrix was a single movie, then like years later heard about sequel. Just look at the 4 years gap from 1 to 2 and 3 being almost together released. They may claim it was always a trilogy, and if you have source of it in 1999 claiming it I would like. Because The way the 2 other movies were made doesn't seem like they were all really tied together from the get-go. Anyway that isn't much of importance since most here don't see how a sequel would go or what they want to tell (except of course they decide to betray the end of the previous movie and make that there were no truce, the machines or humans were lying and used the truce to win and the 4th will tell this story).

I don't follow much gundam, I see them like Super Sentai or the like (similar to Power Rangers and the original material in Japan) a mega franchise that have a new plot each time (rangers in japan is like one series per year), so there being interlinked series, reboots or sequels on it I wouldn't venture describing.

Sequels are very much a norm on USA movies, at least in Brazil it is even a joke on the Friday 14th, Nightmare on Elm Street, and other scary movies. Action Movies like Rambo, Rocky, Fast and Furious. Among many others. And my biggest grip is with comics, where they can't just let the stuff be finished. On the manga we have to go for the exception to find the reboots or sequels (probably have 100 animes on my crunchyroll and perhaps 300 manga everywhere that were short and self contained) while on Comics almost all well know comic heroes have been retelling the same story for 50-100 years every 5-10 years.

In the manga usually each mangaka have his story to told with his character and when he finishes that is it (some spin-off occurs), on comics you narrow down most of the heroes to the likes of Jack Kirbie and Stan Lee (with a few other big names) with everyone else recycling those and not making a name for themselves or a comic of themselves, few exceptions that made a series that got it own following (like Dark Knight).

Dragon Ball was already admitted to being the biggest offender on manga side. Toriyama wanted to finish it with goku still a kid (besides what you put of 1 year duration you put), but then pushed to tell the Saiyans tale, then to go to freeza, then Buu, then at least GT he wasn't involved, and decades later Super. For me this have dropped the quality of Dragon Ball a lot.

The series got pushed by publishers to either take longer or shorter to develop? Yes, and with some fillers and some slowing in the pace as well. But most of time (and for the ones I listed) when you read it there isn't pointless lost content throw in them.

Slam Dunk is one manga that was finished but not finished and everyone wants the "sequel" at least to finish telling their high school years and/or give glimpses of their adulthood. But it is understandable that he don't want to degrade his work with a sequel because the manga is about those 5 guys fighting together, there is no point in making a second year with Goro and Mitsui out of it, although Sakuragi is the main character the team as a whole is almost as important.



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Hiku said:
EricHiggin said:

To me I can't really think of anything else that would fit other than multiple Matrix levels or a prequel, maybe just one movie about Morpheus and Trinity searching for Neo. I'd assume between makeup and a little CGI they could get it right, unless they all look older in a sequel. I'm not a big fan of the second and third movie either. The second is ok but third not so great.

Heck it could even be a sequel and prequel in one actually. If they used the Matrix within a Matrix plot, they could have the 'real world' get rebooted as well, leading to everything starting over again from a point where Morpheus exists. If the information about what happened last time can be somehow passed to Morpheus, things can play out much differently this time around leading to a completely different ending. It would basically be a reboot, by using a reboot, but in a legitimate way through the plot.

A Matrix within a Matrix, a reboot within a reboot, and a sequel within a prequel?

In the movies it seems based on what Agent Smith says that things play out fairly similar to how they usually do. The Oracle basically tells Neo he's still not ready to end the Matrix for good this time around. The Architect tells Neo there have been 6 versions of the Matrix and the One already and that he always fails to completely end the Matrix, in which case he does fail again as the Matrix still get's rebooted at the end, so the next version would be lucky number 7. 

If they wanted to be really sneaky, they could potentially start out the prequel potion as a prequel, as far as the audience is concerned anyway, but then follow through by rebooting the trilogy, except it wouldn't exactly be a reboot since it would have to play out differently this time for Neo to truly end the Matrix for good since it's actually the next version.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

Please, tell me this is a joke... Why would they want to destroy the franchise, like they are doing with Star Wars, by making countless sequels, cuz there's no doubt a new trilogy (or two) is coming up.

I guess the Wachowskis desperatly need money.



Well with the fibre install down the road leading to the phone/dsl line being cut accidentally, I ended up watching the trilogy again during the downtime, and while it unfortunately led to more plot holes becoming apparent, the part about Neo being partially a program got me thinking, along with something else I noticed.

Is Trinity part, if not entirely a program as well? She's able to hack the IRS database, something that's next to impossible apparently, which just so happens to give her legendary status among the hacker community, which Neo is a part of, that allows him to relate to her in a more personal manner. There's no way that doesn't play into his attraction for her, and look at how she keeps him alive, and seems to be there for him when he needs her most, like when she somehow is able to blow the agents head off on the roof to save Neo, when nobody has ever defeated an agent, other than Neo, eventually.

As Neo goes through the trilogy, the programs become more open and up front with him, flat out telling him they have a purpose, and even when they die they say things like, 'it was meant to be', because they know. When Trinity finally dies, she says, "its ok, it's time", as if she knows she's fulfilled her purpose like the other programs. If Smith can become partially a human, and Neo is partially a program, why couldn't Trinity be?

There is also the scene in the 'real world' where Smith (Bane) has a knife to Trinity's throat and after getting Neo to drop his weapon and back off, instead of taking Trinity out and rushing for the gun, he throws her down the hatch instead. This seems like a really dumb move because what is the point in keeping her alive? It's just another potential threat to deal with after he's taken out Neo. He even tells her how satisfying it will be to kill both of them. However, if part of Smith's programming purpose is not to kill Trinity though, then that would make sense, especially since he also mentions to her, 'all the times you got away from me'. Trinity would need to be able to finish her purpose, in getting Neo to the source, and Smith killing her would interfere with that.

Then there's the point when she and Neo get above the clouds and see the sunset, where Trinity just says "beautiful", before descending back towards the machine city, where she finally bites the dust. Doesn't it seem coincidental, that Sati, the child program, with no purpose and born from love, something programs apparently don't understand, creates a sunset at the rebirth of The Matrix, reminiscent of what Trinity and Neo saw not all that long ago in the 'real world'? When Sati points it out to the Oracle, her response is exactly the same as Trinity's, "beautiful", just by chance.

It's as if both Neo's and Trinity's experiences, even in the real world, are being taken into account and sometimes incorporated into The Matrix, and possibly for good reason.

So what's the point of all that? What if the prophecy really is BS in the way in which the humans understand it? What if the Oracle is overall, helping the machines, but also helping the humans somewhat as a consequence? What if the point of The Matrix, from the start, before the trilogy, was to create the perfect system that would assure the humans would remain asleep in the real world? One where everything they would've experienced in the real world from the past, can and will happen within The Matrix now, considering it couldn't be that way before because the programs weren't entirely acting like humans, because they didn't understand them fully.

Imagine a Matrix where the machines now understand everything fully, including love. One where programs no longer are born with purpose, but free to choose and feel just like a human would. What are the odds of any humans waking up from this perfected version because they can sense something is wrong? Extremely unlikely, which would be the point. Figure out a way to stop the humans from waking up period. As for the humans, they basically get to live a 'real life', in terms of what they experience in this final perfected version of The Matrix, without actually having to physically live it, since it's all mental, while the machines get to keep using the humans. It's basically a win win situation in a way.

This would to some degree explain how Neo and Trinity can return in a sequel and have it make sense. If part of them or more is program, and their every thought and experience was being saved from before, then it's not hard to see how the machines could resurrect them. Neo or Trinity wouldn't need to exist in the real world either, since they could possibly be duplicated exactly how they were when they died, but as programs now.

Since nobody is waking up anymore because this final Matrix is so perfect, maybe the entire movie takes place within The Matrix? That would partially explain why they wouldn't need a Morpheus. Maybe the Zion survivors have to now hack into The Matrix again and convince Neo and Trinity that The Matrix is actually fake and to help end it for good somehow, since "The One" won't be emerging due to there being no reason for that to happen? Morpheus was still alive in Zion though, so unless they do something like place the time period well into the future after he's dead, when Zion has been rebuilt and they've been able to finally hack back into The Matrix, that might work.

Last edited by EricHiggin - 3 days ago

The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

I just want to see Hugo Weaving.