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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Does anyone still think smash ultimate is a port?

Feels like a definitive edition including all the unpublished dlc



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numberwang said:

Feels like a definitive edition including all the unpublished dlc

Even with the significant changes to mobility, moves, controls, and how some things work? Even with the altering to the way Final Smashes work (by toggling between charge-up and smash balls)? Even with all the new characters, stages, and items? Even with the new assist trophies and pokemon? 



NightlyPoe said:
pikashoe said:

Before the most recent direct I noticed a few people on this site claiming that the game was definitely a port. Since the direct ended I have heard very little about it being a port. If you thought it was a port have you changed your mind? If so why? If not why?

In fairness, this is just another way in which Nintendo messed up the E3 Direct.  In fact, it's almost exactly the same mistake they made with the Wii U reveal.  People legitimately were confused as to whether it was a new product or not.  And we all know how that turned out.  Really, as much time as they took during the presentation, they wasted a whole lot of time.

Thankfully, the Direct last week did a lot to right the ship.  But, to a large degree, this is how the presentation should have been done at E3.  Open with Luigi being murdered and introduce Simon Belmont.  Jump straight in and announce that all the characters are back.  Immediately afterwards paste in last week's Direct from 16:38-26:44.  Just blow people's minds with all they're cramming into this game.  100 stages, 800+ music tracks, all the new game options.  Introduce Echo Characters and Daisy.  Present the Inklings.  Shorten the list of new moves for each character (this is where the E3 presentation lagged and where time could be saved) and promise a more comprehensive accounting later (in October, not August), though the number of changes can easily hit 10,000.  Mostly focus on the universal changes like the air dodge and shield mechanics.  Do go ahead and describe the changes in the Final Smashes.  Mention a few new assist trophies.  Murder Mario and Mega Man and introduce Ridley.  Give a release date.

Really, that 10 minute chunk from this week's Direct would have made all the difference.  Instead of a highly disjointed presentation that that went back and forth between important, but technical differences in moves and purely cosmetic ones of the character changes, those 10 minutes in this week's Direct got me officially hyped for Ultimate Smash.  It suddenly looked ridiculously polished and left me with a feeling that this would be a miracle game like Melee.

I think Smash's presence at E3 is to each its own. Personally, I think it did a good job setting the tone for the game, even if it took half of the Direct's time. The reason why I felt it did a good job is because "Everyone is Here" laid the groundwork for the title of Ultimate. I think of Smash Ultimate as Justice League Unlimited. In Ultimate, there are no cuts and everyone, including Snake, Pichu, and Young Link, characters we thought had little chance of coming back, are back. To show that after about 1.5 years (since finalizing the roster was done around December 2015), is impressive, considering that Sakurai and Nintendo may have had to renew some of the licensing deals with the third parties and first party characters like Pichu, Young Link, and Wolf had to be remodeled after being cut from the previous games. Of course, a good amount of characters have been remodeled, some obvious (i.e., Zelda, Ganondorf, and Ike) and some more subtle (i.e., Shulk, Cloud, and Marth). Then you had favorites finally make their debut with the Inklings, Daisy, and Ridley, a long-time request. And Bill Trinen even mentioned that E3 wouldn't show everything and announcements would be made the closer we get to launch, which is what we got on the 8th of August.



Alara317 said:
numberwang said:

Feels like a definitive edition including all the unpublished dlc

Even with the significant changes to mobility, moves, controls, and how some things work? Even with the altering to the way Final Smashes work (by toggling between charge-up and smash balls)? Even with all the new characters, stages, and items? Even with the new assist trophies and pokemon? 

There is more difference between Brutal Doom and Doom than these two Smashes and Brutal Doom is a mod of the original.



numberwang said:
Alara317 said:

Even with the significant changes to mobility, moves, controls, and how some things work? Even with the altering to the way Final Smashes work (by toggling between charge-up and smash balls)? Even with all the new characters, stages, and items? Even with the new assist trophies and pokemon? 

There is more difference between Brutal Doom and Doom than these two Smashes and Brutal Doom is a mod of the original.

...The same could be said of many sequels. Again, you people are moving goalposts to fit the port narrative.



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NightlyPoe said:
Kai_Mao said:

I think Smash's presence at E3 is to each its own. Personally, I think it did a good job setting the tone for the game, even if it took half of the Direct's time. The reason why I felt it did a good job is because "Everyone is Here" laid the groundwork for the title of Ultimate. I think of Smash Ultimate as Justice League Unlimited. In Ultimate, there are no cuts and everyone, including Snake, Pichu, and Young Link, characters we thought had little chance of coming back, are back. To show that after about 1.5 years (since finalizing the roster was done around December 2015), is impressive, considering that Sakurai and Nintendo may have had to renew some of the licensing deals with the third parties and first party characters like Pichu, Young Link, and Wolf had to be remodeled after being cut from the previous games. Of course, a good amount of characters have been remodeled, some obvious (i.e., Zelda, Ganondorf, and Ike) and some more subtle (i.e., Shulk, Cloud, and Marth). Then you had favorites finally make their debut with the Inklings, Daisy, and Ridley, a long-time request. And Bill Trinen even mentioned that E3 wouldn't show everything and announcements would be made the closer we get to launch, which is what we got on the 8th of August.

I'm afraid you missed my point.  They hyped the wrong thing at the wrong time and got bogged down in minutia.  The "Everyone is Here" was indeed a good foundation.  But then they immediately spent 10 minutes rambling about generally small changes they made in fighters.  It literally went from "Everyone is Here" to "Mario's got a new hat".  It bored the audience and there were many complaints about the presentation dragging.  Meanwhile, just speaking for myself, I was never bored for a moment during this week's Direct despite it actually being longer than the E3 Smash presentation.  Why?  Because they consistently made the game feel massive and that they were giving it all the loving care one could ask for in trying to craft the greatest Smash ever above and beyond merely including all the previous characters and shut down the idea that it was just a port.

You could cut that entire character changes segment out, paste in the 10 minutes I suggested from the most recent Direct, and you instantly have a better, more coherent, presentation that would have been the talk of E3.  Instead the talk was of Nintendo's poor E3 showing and lingering speculation on whether the game was a port or not.

You're right. The E3-presentation was riddled, because the devs knew what work and dedication they had poured into the game and wanted to bring that over, so were going into details. Which exactly delivered a different message: we have not done anything major so we concentrate on the small stuff. As a programmer I could see how much work this stuff was, and I'm pretty positive Ultimate has the biggest development budget of any Smash-games. But for non-technical persons this seemed unimpressive.



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NightlyPoe said:
Kai_Mao said:

I think Smash's presence at E3 is to each its own. Personally, I think it did a good job setting the tone for the game, even if it took half of the Direct's time. The reason why I felt it did a good job is because "Everyone is Here" laid the groundwork for the title of Ultimate. I think of Smash Ultimate as Justice League Unlimited. In Ultimate, there are no cuts and everyone, including Snake, Pichu, and Young Link, characters we thought had little chance of coming back, are back. To show that after about 1.5 years (since finalizing the roster was done around December 2015), is impressive, considering that Sakurai and Nintendo may have had to renew some of the licensing deals with the third parties and first party characters like Pichu, Young Link, and Wolf had to be remodeled after being cut from the previous games. Of course, a good amount of characters have been remodeled, some obvious (i.e., Zelda, Ganondorf, and Ike) and some more subtle (i.e., Shulk, Cloud, and Marth). Then you had favorites finally make their debut with the Inklings, Daisy, and Ridley, a long-time request. And Bill Trinen even mentioned that E3 wouldn't show everything and announcements would be made the closer we get to launch, which is what we got on the 8th of August.

I'm afraid you missed my point.  They hyped the wrong thing at the wrong time and got bogged down in minutia.  The "Everyone is Here" was indeed a good foundation.  But then they immediately spent 10 minutes rambling about generally small changes they made in fighters.  It literally went from "Everyone is Here" to "Mario's got a new hat".  It bored the audience and there were many complaints about the presentation dragging.  Meanwhile, just speaking for myself, I was never bored for a moment during this week's Direct despite it actually being longer than the E3 Smash presentation.  Why?  Because they consistently made the game feel massive and that they were giving it all the loving care one could ask for in trying to craft the greatest Smash ever above and beyond merely including all the previous characters and shut down the idea that it was just a port.

You could cut that entire character changes segment out, paste in the 10 minutes I suggested from the most recent Direct, and you instantly have a better, more coherent, presentation that would have been the talk of E3.  Instead the talk was of Nintendo's poor E3 showing and lingering speculation on whether the game was a port or not.

I get the presentation went a little too long, but I think the changes being noted weren't that boring to me and I didn't see that boredom from video reactions. People wanted to know what changed anyway. It's cool seeing Ganondorf finally use a sword, its cool seeing the various costumes from certain characters, its cool seeing Pokemon Trainer able to switch between Pokemon seemlessly. I think the new techniques and such would have likely affected people more negatively than the character changes because those are more for hardcore fans, not the casual fans that care very little about directional air dodging and the difference between 1-on-1 damage and free-for-all damage.

And apparently, it didn't affect the game or the Switch that much negatively anyway, as Switch sales doubled according to Game Stop post-E3 thanks to Smash Bros. and Pokemon; and Ultimate immediately shot up the COMG charts, even though first party Switch games have tended to do more than what COMG provides on the preorder charts.

So maybe the negative talk about Smash at E3 here is a bit more anecdotal as the sales and preorder results have shown otherwise.



JWeinCom said:
Podings said:

Oh, yeah, I'm only talking about the visuals. Shape language, color palettes, surface qualities, animations, sizes of details, that kind of thing.

A lot can be done to unify elements that would otherwise looks disparate, and they really gave it some good effort in 4.

I sort of get what you're saying, but sort of don't.  Any specific examples you can give?

An example would be how all characters were redesigned slightly for 4, to use the same style of details around eyes, ears, and hair. Even on Bayonetta, her ears, face, and the seams on her leather outfit, and the reflections on that, had all be stylized slightly to fit in with the others. Likewise, when two characters stood next to eachother, even if their heads were wildly different sizes, the smallest details visible (like the glint in an eye, or the engravings in a sword) would still match up to a certain degree (in could still be better), making the characters feel like they belong on the same scale of existance. 

Aside from that, almost everything in 4 felt softly self-illuminated, giving off a brightly colored feel, with the normal maps (the light-catching details that aren't part of the color layer on a model) only showing their face during close-ups and extreme lighting conditions.

Conversely, in Ultimate, some of the the same models are used, but with the light source influence dialed all the way up, resulting in some details reading with higher contrast, and some surfaces like scales demanding much more attention than might originally have been intended. This sometimes makes a design seem a little unintentionally jumbled and unrefined. On  top of that, they add some not-exactly-state-of-the-art self shadowing. That's when you see an animated character's head or hand cause a shadow on the model itself, instead of just the environment. This was always a costly effect that is only really starting to look decent with the tech employed on the PS4 and XBO. On Switch, the rough outlines of these shadows and the simplistic algorithm used to blend their color with that of the model's own texture results in the effect mostly making the characters' detials look harder to read, and the final image overall more murky, with less contrast and rough edges stealing the eye to irrelevant spots.

Look up in-game shots of Ridley to see all of this in action. And that's on a new model even, bringing me to my final area of concern, which is with the new models introduces for Ultimate, hcich just don't seem on par with what was in already from 4. Particularly Ridley is just a monochrome blob, with normal map details of an even complexity covering his entire body. I've got issues with Zeldas model as well. And K. Rool's. And with the way they introduce Shovel Knight unaltered, and add in a bunch of very old looking Pokémon models.


Ultimately (haha) I'm hoping most of this will be cleaned up before launch, but it's looking like a tall order. Some new assets, like Dracula's Castle for instance, really do look great!


Apologies for the lengthy write-up. I wanted to show some pictures, but finding the adresses and inserting them correctly proved somewhat more complex than typing. ^^



Podings said:
JWeinCom said:

I sort of get what you're saying, but sort of don't.  Any specific examples you can give?

An example would be how all characters were redesigned slightly for 4, to use the same style of details around eyes, ears, and hair. Even on Bayonetta, her ears, face, and the seams on her leather outfit, and the reflections on that, had all be stylized slightly to fit in with the others. Likewise, when two characters stood next to eachother, even if their heads were wildly different sizes, the smallest details visible (like the glint in an eye, or the engravings in a sword) would still match up to a certain degree (in could still be better), making the characters feel like they belong on the same scale of existance. 

Aside from that, almost everything in 4 felt softly self-illuminated, giving off a brightly colored feel, with the normal maps (the light-catching details that aren't part of the color layer on a model) only showing their face during close-ups and extreme lighting conditions.

Conversely, in Ultimate, some of the the same models are used, but with the light source influence dialed all the way up, resulting in some details reading with higher contrast, and some surfaces like scales demanding much more attention than might originally have been intended. This sometimes makes a design seem a little unintentionally jumbled and unrefined. On  top of that, they add some not-exactly-state-of-the-art self shadowing. That's when you see an animated character's head or hand cause a shadow on the model itself, instead of just the environment. This was always a costly effect that is only really starting to look decent with the tech employed on the PS4 and XBO. On Switch, the rough outlines of these shadows and the simplistic algorithm used to blend their color with that of the model's own texture results in the effect mostly making the characters' detials look harder to read, and the final image overall more murky, with less contrast and rough edges stealing the eye to irrelevant spots.

Look up in-game shots of Ridley to see all of this in action. And that's on a new model even, bringing me to my final area of concern, which is with the new models introduces for Ultimate, hcich just don't seem on par with what was in already from 4. Particularly Ridley is just a monochrome blob, with normal map details of an even complexity covering his entire body. I've got issues with Zeldas model as well. And K. Rool's. And with the way they introduce Shovel Knight unaltered, and add in a bunch of very old looking Pokémon models.


Ultimately (haha) I'm hoping most of this will be cleaned up before launch, but it's looking like a tall order. Some new assets, like Dracula's Castle for instance, really do look great!


Apologies for the lengthy write-up. I wanted to show some pictures, but finding the adresses and inserting them correctly proved somewhat more complex than typing. ^^

I appreciate the detail.  I thought you were talking about the tone of the game, but I guess you were talking more about the visual quality. I really wasn't paying that close attention to those kinds of details.  Although, I do have to disagree with Ridley.  He's kind of a monochrome blob in all his games.  



JWeinCom said: 
...Although, I do have to disagree with Ridley.  He's kind of a monochrome blob in all his games.  

Well that much is true.

Though I do feel like the particular design they're rolling with is one of his least interesting.