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Forums - Politics Discussion - Democrats Vote To Give Trump Obscene $717 Billion Mílítary Budget

Hiku said:

The USA defense budget was already beyond insane before this vote...

People often forget, or don't commonly mention, that even though Republicans are the main offenders of taking large corporate donations, there are plenty of Democrats that do the same.

I fail to see why USA's defense budget needs to be that much higher than the top 7 closest countries combined.
Need to vote all these people out.

China is an economic enemy, and a political one. It could be a military one down the road because of those things.

We have had a horrible history with Russia and that will probably continue, so need to be on alert.

Saudi Arabia is friendly, but who knows when a radical islamic group will overthrow their monarchy? Then, they won't be so friendly.

India and Pakistan every now and then are just looking for an excuse to wipe each other out.

France and the UK have become distant from the United States recently, even under Bush and Obama, as Europe pushes more towards socialism or extreme liberalism (American definition).

Japan is our closest friend on that list right now, and they need support if NK, China, or Russia ever do anything.

Our military size and power prevents a lot of countries from getting any wise ideas. It's a deterrent having this high of a budget. If we slashed it and became isolationists again terror organizations would run amock, dictatorships would rise, and stable parts of the world wouldn't be stable. If we promised to not intervene (because wr didn't want to spend the money) Putin would easily invade more parts of Europe, NK and China would try and take SK, and middle eastern nation's would have multiple revolutions leading to Israel being attacked on all sides.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I'm saying many left wingers don't realize we are ALREADY spending a fortune on social services. For fun sometimes I tell them the actual percentage of our military budget and its a lot lower than they think. However, the left never says we need the best bang for the buck on things like healthcare or education, their solution is simply pour more money in.

Well. Funding is a part of the equation, I think there needs to be a strong top-to-bottom audit done on all your social services/welfare in the USA because... As far as international standards go, the USA just isn't getting a good deal or good results.

Allot of the leave-it-to-the-market capitalistic approaches to many services just doesn't work, because they become for-profit, rather than focusing on what's really important.


Mr Puggsly said:

I don't believe our only concern with China is they're becoming the most powerful country. They're essentially a threat to the US in every way possible.

Well. I think the USA should learn to work with them, rather than against them.
China isn't going anywhere, that is a fact... The USA can try and limit trade as much as they want, but the rest of the planet will continue to buy and support Chinese.


Alby_da_Wolf said:

You're far too gentle and mild about it, the F-35 is one of the most shameless scams the USA ever gave to their allies. Many years ago the scandal about the Hercules C-130 was mainly about its excessive price and bribing allied countries politicians, but it was a decent airplane, particularly after all the improvements it received in its long career, but the F-35 is utter overpriced flying crap, if it even manages to fly, that is.

Well. We managed to save some coin because we are building some of the technology that will go into our F-35's.
But I think a better deal would have been the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Dulfite said:

China is an economic enemy, and a political one. It could be a military one down the road because of those things.

Slippery Slope arguments are a logical fallacy... And thus incorrect.


Dulfite said:

We have had a horrible history with Russia and that will probably continue, so need to be on alert.

Things are better today with Trump... Things don't have to be so horrible.

Dulfite said:

France and the UK have become distant from the United States recently, even under Bush and Obama, as Europe pushes more towards socialism or extreme liberalism (American definition).

Allot of Europe, Oceania, Pacific, Asian Countries are getting closer to China. Because. Well. Money.
China is buying our resources, products and services.

 

Dulfite said:

Japan is our closest friend on that list right now, and they need support if NK, China, or Russia ever do anything.

Pretty much the entire Western world would support Japan in such an instance, there are treaties and such that are binding.

Dulfite said:

Putin would easily invade more parts of Europe, NK and China would try and take SK, and middle eastern nation's would have multiple revolutions leading to Israel being attacked on all sides.

No.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I'm saying many left wingers don't realize we are ALREADY spending a fortune on social services. For fun sometimes I tell them the actual percentage of our military budget and its a lot lower than they think. However, the left never says we need the best bang for the buck on things like healthcare or education, their solution is simply pour more money in.

Well. Funding is a part of the equation, I think there needs to be a strong top-to-bottom audit done on all your social services/welfare in the USA because... As far as international standards go, the USA just isn't getting a good deal or good results.

Allot of the leave-it-to-the-market capitalistic approaches to many services just doesn't work, because they become for-profit, rather than focusing on what's really important.

Mr Puggsly said:

I don't believe our only concern with China is they're becoming the most powerful country. They're essentially a threat to the US in every way possible.

Well. I think the USA should learn to work with them, rather than against them.
China isn't going anywhere, that is a fact... The USA can try and limit trade as much as they want, but the rest of the planet will continue to buy and support Chinese.

 

Dulfite said:

China is an economic enemy, and a political one. It could be a military one down the road because of those things.

Slippery Slope arguments are a logical fallacy... And thus incorrect.

Things are better today with Trump... Things don't have to be so horrible.

 

Well that's the thing, in the US there is little accountability on the money being spent, where its going, etc. When republicans start entertaining the idea of putting more accountability on spending and budget cutting, it starts a propaganda war about how public services will decline in quality.

For example, look at education. We spend more than virtually any other country per student. The democrats never argue that's a problem, instead they're always arguing we simply need to spend more even with no results. Democrats also have strong opposition of private and charter schools because public schools want no alternatives/competition even if they get better results with less spending. Their concern isn't helping children, they just want a monopoly on education and more money.

I argue we don't rely enough on for for-profit solutions. They create better and more economical solutions when government fails.

 

Well some argue that's what Trump is trying to do with this tariff situation. And frankly, its probably in our best interest to do less business with China and try to rely more on other countries. People mock the US because we're bigger consumers than much of the world, but its also our strength. That makes the US a significant trading partner, China's most significant. We could work with other countries more for cheap products as well if China is seen as a real threat.

 

China is an economic threat, not even a debate. They also oppose our western way of life (freedom), they constantly try to steal our secrets and technology, and unfortunately we have US companies working closely with them for greater profits (like Google, facebook, apple, etc.). You seem to be oblivious to these realities.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Well that's the thing, in the US there is little accountability on the money being spent, where its going, etc. When republicans start entertaining the idea of putting more accountability on spending and budget cutting, it starts a propaganda war about how public services will decline in quality.

For example, look at education. We spend more than virtually any other country per student. The democrats never argue that's a problem, instead they're always arguing we simply need to spend more even with no results. Democrats also have strong opposition of private and charter schools because public schools want no alternatives/competition even if they get better results with less spending. Their concern isn't helping children, they just want a monopoly on education and more money.

I argue we don't rely enough on for for-profit solutions. They create better and more economical solutions when government fails.

 

 

I have to say this is pure opinion.  First charter schools do not outperform public schools because they have better education.  What they do is cherry pick their students so that their test scores stay high.  Public schools do not have this privilege since they accept everyone no matter their test scores, economic background or social status. The current system right now have absolutely no oversight on private schools/ Charter schools.  Because of that, you have many private and charter schools opening up all over the place as simple scams.  Private and Charter schools isn't really an answer but just another choice and right now the current education secretary is pretty much in it for the money.  There isn't anything wrong with Private or Charter schools but as with anything within the US system, if there is no real oversight into what they do, then a lot of kids will get crap education at the expense of the taxpayers.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/opinion/29sat2.html

Also you seem to forget that during the Obama term, his administration tried to institute a lot of accountability into the system but there was a lot of push back.  In this case republican did not want to do anything because they say this trample on States rights. As for who is for or against accountability for schools, it all depends on who is in power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/senate-scraps-obama-regulations-on-school-accountability/2017/03/09/e9279932-04e5-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html?utm_term=.dc427cecc493

We will see if there is a better solution then just cutting checks to private and charter schools and leaving other individual kids behind but with this administration I highly doubt it.



Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well that's the thing, in the US there is little accountability on the money being spent, where its going, etc. When republicans start entertaining the idea of putting more accountability on spending and budget cutting, it starts a propaganda war about how public services will decline in quality.

For example, look at education. We spend more than virtually any other country per student. The democrats never argue that's a problem, instead they're always arguing we simply need to spend more even with no results. Democrats also have strong opposition of private and charter schools because public schools want no alternatives/competition even if they get better results with less spending. Their concern isn't helping children, they just want a monopoly on education and more money.

I argue we don't rely enough on for for-profit solutions. They create better and more economical solutions when government fails.

 

 

I have to say this is pure opinion.  First charter schools do not outperform public schools because they have better education.  What they do is cherry pick their students so that their test scores stay high.  Public schools do not have this privilege since they accept everyone no matter their test scores, economic background or social status. The current system right now have absolutely no oversight on private schools/ Charter schools.  Because of that, you have many private and charter schools opening up all over the place as simple scams.  Private and Charter schools isn't really an answer but just another choice and right now the current education secretary is pretty much in it for the money.  There isn't anything wrong with Private or Charter schools but as with anything within the US system, if there is no real oversight into what they do, then a lot of kids will get crap education at the expense of the taxpayers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/opinion/29sat2.html

Also you seem to forget that during the Obama term, his administration tried to institute a lot of accountability into the system but there was a lot of push back.  In this case republican did not want to do anything because they say this trample on States rights. As for who is for or against accountability for schools, it all depends on who is in power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/senate-scraps-obama-regulations-on-school-accountability/2017/03/09/e9279932-04e5-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html?utm_term=.dc427cecc493

We will see if there is a better solution then just cutting checks to private and charter schools and leaving other individual kids behind but with this administration I highly doubt it.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Well some argue that's what Trump is trying to do with this tariff situation. And frankly, its probably in our best interest to do less business with China and try to rely more on other countries. People mock the US because we're bigger consumers than much of the world, but its also our strength. That makes the US a significant trading partner, China's most significant. We could work with other countries more for cheap products as well if China is seen as a real threat.

 

China is an economic threat, not even a debate. They also oppose our western way of life (freedom), they constantly try to steal our secrets and technology, and unfortunately we have US companies working closely with them for greater profits (like Google, facebook, apple, etc.). You seem to be oblivious to these realities.

That all sounds great and good when its not your job or company facing issues with the Tariffs.  The thing is, Trump isn't just targeting china, he is targeting everyone.  If Trump was only targeting China that actually would be a decent plan and it would limit the amount of impact to the US economy.  The thing is China is also out there making deals as well but they are not pissing everyone off the same way as Trump.  I personally have no issue with us trying to get China in line, I have a problem trying to fight multiple battle fronts, pissing everyone off and then trying to make deals.  Believing that a trade war will not hurt the US or a lot of business is very naive.  Most of these business depend on long contract engagements especially our farmers.  Trying to find someone else to fill the gap isn't something the industry can do at a drop of a dime and many will suffer before anything changes.

The US government support many countries that oppose western way of life, that has never been something the US cared about when it comes to business.  Oh, you forgot to add one more company working closely with China which is Trump.  Either way, lets just hope he actually have a plan because if its this tick for tat he is employing then that will net absolutely nothing.



Mr Puggsly said:

Well that's the thing, in the US there is little accountability on the money being spent, where its going, etc. When republicans start entertaining the idea of putting more accountability on spending and budget cutting, it starts a propaganda war about how public services will decline in quality.

For example, look at education. We spend more than virtually any other country per student. The democrats never argue that's a problem, instead they're always arguing we simply need to spend more even with no results. Democrats also have strong opposition of private and charter schools because public schools want no alternatives/competition even if they get better results with less spending. Their concern isn't helping children, they just want a monopoly on education and more money.

I argue we don't rely enough on for for-profit solutions. They create better and more economical solutions when government fails.

From what I can see, both sides of the political divide are equally at fault for the current situation.
Republicans want everything privatized and left to the market where profits are the priority.
Democrats want to throw more money at everything.

The ideal spot is actually somewhere in the middle.

You need to take a look at what nations overseas are doing and the results they are bringing in... And if you are going to try and place blame on any singular political party, then you simply aren't looking at the larger picture.

Mr Puggsly said:

Well some argue that's what Trump is trying to do with this tariff situation. And frankly, its probably in our best interest to do less business with China and try to rely more on other countries. People mock the US because we're bigger consumers than much of the world, but its also our strength. That makes the US a significant trading partner, China's most significant. We could work with other countries more for cheap products as well if China is seen as a real threat.

 

China is an economic threat, not even a debate. They also oppose our western way of life (freedom), they constantly try to steal our secrets and technology, and unfortunately we have US companies working closely with them for greater profits (like Google, facebook, apple, etc.). You seem to be oblivious to these realities.

Oblivious? No.
The United States is a significant trading force, but it's still smaller than the rest of the planet, the United States can chuck a tantrum and enter trade wars with China... However the rest of the world will keep buying from China and China will keep buying from the rest of the world... In the long run, the United States will only hinder it's own position.

So yes, you "could" work more with other countries, but it's not going to happen when countries like my own do the vast majority of their trade with China, the USA isn't even that important to us anymore from an economic point of view, throwing more Tariffs at the problem is only pushing us farther away.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well that's the thing, in the US there is little accountability on the money being spent, where its going, etc. When republicans start entertaining the idea of putting more accountability on spending and budget cutting, it starts a propaganda war about how public services will decline in quality.

For example, look at education. We spend more than virtually any other country per student. The democrats never argue that's a problem, instead they're always arguing we simply need to spend more even with no results. Democrats also have strong opposition of private and charter schools because public schools want no alternatives/competition even if they get better results with less spending. Their concern isn't helping children, they just want a monopoly on education and more money.

I argue we don't rely enough on for for-profit solutions. They create better and more economical solutions when government fails.

 

 

I have to say this is pure opinion.  First charter schools do not outperform public schools because they have better education.  What they do is cherry pick their students so that their test scores stay high.  Public schools do not have this privilege since they accept everyone no matter their test scores, economic background or social status. The current system right now have absolutely no oversight on private schools/ Charter schools.  Because of that, you have many private and charter schools opening up all over the place as simple scams.  Private and Charter schools isn't really an answer but just another choice and right now the current education secretary is pretty much in it for the money.  There isn't anything wrong with Private or Charter schools but as with anything within the US system, if there is no real oversight into what they do, then a lot of kids will get crap education at the expense of the taxpayers.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/opinion/29sat2.html

Also you seem to forget that during the Obama term, his administration tried to institute a lot of accountability into the system but there was a lot of push back.  In this case republican did not want to do anything because they say this trample on States rights. As for who is for or against accountability for schools, it all depends on who is in power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/senate-scraps-obama-regulations-on-school-accountability/2017/03/09/e9279932-04e5-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html?utm_term=.dc427cecc493

We will see if there is a better solution then just cutting checks to private and charter schools and leaving other individual kids behind but with this administration I highly doubt it.

Well it appears where charter schools are in demand they actually use a lottery system to select kids. So I imagine that limits their ability to select the best.

I believe kids in charter schools can perform better because they don't tolerate as much crap as public so you get less distractions, they have more freedom in how they teach, and the parents care more about their kids getting a good education in general. All of these factors create a better environment that the public schools can't duplicate. But that doesn't mean everybody should be stuck with the public option.

If a child isn't making an effort or being a distraction to other kids, the charter school should remove that child. The child can still be educated in the public system. Charter schools aren't designed to cater to everyone, its just an option for parents who want something different than what the public offers.

On a side note, you're essentially implying charter schools avoid kids based on their economic background. The reality is charter schools are in demand in poor areas because that's where public schools tend to fail most.

Public schools might have more transparency which is argued, but public schools also give dumb kids diplomas. We essentially have illiterate people graduating which makes little sense in my mind.



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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well that's the thing, in the US there is little accountability on the money being spent, where its going, etc. When republicans start entertaining the idea of putting more accountability on spending and budget cutting, it starts a propaganda war about how public services will decline in quality.

For example, look at education. We spend more than virtually any other country per student. The democrats never argue that's a problem, instead they're always arguing we simply need to spend more even with no results. Democrats also have strong opposition of private and charter schools because public schools want no alternatives/competition even if they get better results with less spending. Their concern isn't helping children, they just want a monopoly on education and more money.

I argue we don't rely enough on for for-profit solutions. They create better and more economical solutions when government fails.

From what I can see, both sides of the political divide are equally at fault for the current situation.
Republicans want everything privatized and left to the market where profits are the priority.
Democrats want to throw more money at everything.

The ideal spot is actually somewhere in the middle.

You need to take a look at what nations overseas are doing and the results they are bringing in... And if you are going to try and place blame on any singular political party, then you simply aren't looking at the larger picture.

Mr Puggsly said:

Well some argue that's what Trump is trying to do with this tariff situation. And frankly, its probably in our best interest to do less business with China and try to rely more on other countries. People mock the US because we're bigger consumers than much of the world, but its also our strength. That makes the US a significant trading partner, China's most significant. We could work with other countries more for cheap products as well if China is seen as a real threat.

 

China is an economic threat, not even a debate. They also oppose our western way of life (freedom), they constantly try to steal our secrets and technology, and unfortunately we have US companies working closely with them for greater profits (like Google, facebook, apple, etc.). You seem to be oblivious to these realities.

Oblivious? No.
The United States is a significant trading force, but it's still smaller than the rest of the planet, the United States can chuck a tantrum and enter trade wars with China... However the rest of the world will keep buying from China and China will keep buying from the rest of the world... In the long run, the United States will only hinder it's own position.

So yes, you "could" work more with other countries, but it's not going to happen when countries like my own do the vast majority of their trade with China, the USA isn't even that important to us anymore from an economic point of view, throwing more Tariffs at the problem is only pushing us farther away.

The democrats look at Europe socialized service in a very general sense, they spin the truth to fit their ideals. They argue Europe has free healthcare, free college education, and many other free social services. But they ignore things like high taxes and college is primarily free for people with actual potential. People in the US have the impression we can have lots of free stuff by simply taxing the rich more, in reality everybody (working) would require a large tax increase. The problem with that is people in the US actually hate taxes, even the average democrat.

Ultimately, we can't throw an endless fortune on relatively basic services and expect much more other free services. Hence, if democrats can't entertain the idea of more efficient spending than the biggest hurdle starts with them.

The US is still a big chunk of China's exports. Also, if the US props up other countries exports than maybe other countries will look elsewhere too when it makes sense. Unless things change its best we move away from China, they're a threat to the west in general.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 10 August 2018

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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

I have to say this is pure opinion.  First charter schools do not outperform public schools because they have better education.  What they do is cherry pick their students so that their test scores stay high.  Public schools do not have this privilege since they accept everyone no matter their test scores, economic background or social status. The current system right now have absolutely no oversight on private schools/ Charter schools.  Because of that, you have many private and charter schools opening up all over the place as simple scams.  Private and Charter schools isn't really an answer but just another choice and right now the current education secretary is pretty much in it for the money.  There isn't anything wrong with Private or Charter schools but as with anything within the US system, if there is no real oversight into what they do, then a lot of kids will get crap education at the expense of the taxpayers.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/opinion/29sat2.html

Also you seem to forget that during the Obama term, his administration tried to institute a lot of accountability into the system but there was a lot of push back.  In this case republican did not want to do anything because they say this trample on States rights. As for who is for or against accountability for schools, it all depends on who is in power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/senate-scraps-obama-regulations-on-school-accountability/2017/03/09/e9279932-04e5-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html?utm_term=.dc427cecc493

We will see if there is a better solution then just cutting checks to private and charter schools and leaving other individual kids behind but with this administration I highly doubt it.

Well it appears where charter schools are in demand they actually use a lottery system to select kids. So I imagine that limits their ability to select the best.

I believe kids in charter schools can perform better because they don't tolerate as much crap as public so you get less distractions, they have more freedom in how they teach, and the parents care more about their kids getting a good education in general. All of these factors create a better environment that the public schools can't duplicate. But that doesn't mean everybody should be stuck with the public option.

If a child isn't making an effort or being a distraction to other kids, the charter school should remove that child. The child can still be educated in the public system. Charter schools aren't designed to cater to everyone, its just an option for parents who want something different than what the public offers.

On a side note, you're essentially implying charter schools avoid kids based on their economic background. The reality is charter schools are in demand in poor areas because that's where public schools tend to fail most.

Public schools might have more transparency which is argued, but public schools also give dumb kids diplomas. We essentially have illiterate people graduating which makes little sense in my mind.

Are you a parent because your First paragraph sounds like someone who knows absolutely nothing about public schools.  Why do you believe charter schools do not have the same problems as a public school.  What make you believe that the parents who children go to a public school do not care about their child education.  You are throwing out some high brow opinion but I truly wonder where your experience is coming from.

I do not agree if the child is not making an effort or a distraction the kid should be removed.  Not knowing or understanding the circumstances of that child you are already throwing them to the curb.  If a charter school wants to be discriminating like that then why should we the people fund them with our tax money.  Kids go through all type of fazes in their lives, having some draconian system like that sounds like it would be more destructive than helpful even for the very good students.  If they want to go that route then just like a Private school, they can fund themselves.  There have been many children who have overcome problems at home, in their environment and other items that may affect them when someone takes the enough time to care and reach out.  In your world, those children would be sent packing and the results is often worst.  I have no problems with a Charter school being discriminating with who they let within their walls, but I also do not believe I need to pay for such a system out of my tax money.

Just because you have a Charter School in a poor area does not mean its there as a facility to help them or raises the bar over a public school.  You forget that the majority of the funding for those schools are state and local government and some of the organizations that run are in it for the money.

http://socialistworker.org/2014/01/22/the-chicago-charter-scam

As for dumb kids graduating, who says that charter schools do not do the same thing.  They hold up to no standard besides their own and there isn't anything making them not auto pass a kids as long as that kids takes up a seat at the school so the organization gets paid.

To sum this up, I do not have a problem with private, charter or public school.  I grew up in a public school and both my younger kids go to a private school.  My older son graduated from a charter school.  The problems you believe that do not happen in these schools are not there and the totally negative view you have of public schools is also not always the case.  They all have their pros and cons.  I actually do not mind a voucher system if it allowed me to defray the cost of sending both my kids to the private school they go to today.  From my own experience, there needs to be a balance and taking money from the public system if those kids cannot attend private or charter is nothing something I would support.