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Forums - Politics Discussion - Democrats Vote To Give Trump Obscene $717 Billion Mílítary Budget

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

That's bullshit, the republicans absolutely support social services. They get attacked for trying to reduce spending and reduce safety nets that people exploit. On the otherhand democrats subscribe to the theory, more spending = more quality. Although, its military where the republicans don't mind pouring lots of money into but democrats don't obstruct that either.

And yet. I constantly see many republicans complain about socialism. Go figure.
I mean, you are probably right, some republicans probably do support social services, but I can only base things around what I have observed.

And they are fully doing the right thing reducing spending, provided that quality of service isn't impacted.

Mr Puggsly said:

Again, democrats are not interested in cost cuts and would prefer if all health care went the public route. Many western countries with socialized healthcare don't even agree with that. Hence, democrats look to countries who have socialized healthcare but don't actually want to practice it the same way they do.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Democratic_Party_Health_Care.htm
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-democrats-healthcare-agenda-20180227-story.html
https://www.democraticleader.gov/issue/healthcare/

Mr Puggsly said:

I know profitable is a dirty word, but its also synonymous with quality.

False.

Mr Puggsly said:

 Generally speaking in capitalism, you need to create something people want for profits. With that said, companies seeking a profit also have an ability to be more efficient with spending and offer high quality service. That's why people tend to opt for private healthcare even when public is an option.

Indeed, companies seeking a profit tend to be more efficient.
But after some time, shareholders keep demanding more and more and more, eventually what the shareholders want and what the consumer wants doesn't align and services start to suffer. I mean. Lootboxes.

Mr Puggsly said:

We are working with China, working with the US has been great for them and they're obviously going to be stubborn when it comes to making changes.

And so they should be stubborn.
But if the US keeps with it's protectionist stance, it's going to loose business from the rest of the world as the rest of the world will look closer towards China for growth rather than the USA. I mean, my own country started to do so decades ago, hence why we never had a recession during the Global Financial Crisis.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Non-US citizens say thank you US government for being policemen to provide security with increased military spending. Millions of US citizens will continue to not have basic Universal healthcare that is readily available in European nations.

We don't need your security though.
But you should say "thanks" for allowing us to save you money, train your personnel, provide you with infrastructure, food and resources though. ;)
I.E. It goes both ways.

Bullshit, social services and reasonable safety nets are not SOCIALISM. Dems do this all the time, they equate social programs with socialism. However, we are seeing a real push socialism in the left right now.

Instead of clicking those links, I will tell you no state has attempted socialized healthcare is because they haven't come up with an affordable plan. Even the bluest pro-socialism states have not bothered. What the government should probably do is create some non profit clinics or something, compete and show us how lost cost health care is done. The thing is they can't do it.

The things you buy is generally because of capitalism and free market. Generally the most successful and profitable companies create and/or offer services people want. So yeah, quality is part of capitalism unless you have the notion in your head companies don't serve people at all.

Some examples of capitalism going awry is not reflective of how things generally work. Some major businesses or products no longer exist often because competition produced something better. So again, serving people quality is still crucial.

We rely heavily on many countries for exports. So either we kowtow, work out a better deal, or look elsewhere when we can. I would imagine there are countries that would gladly take trade opportunities from China.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Bullshit, social services and reasonable safety nets are not SOCIALISM. Dems do this all the time, they equate social programs with socialism. However, we are seeing a real push socialism in the left right now.

There is a ton of different types of socialism, there is no singular definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Politics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism#Bismarck's_social_policy

I am also not a Democrat. I am not even American. (Nor would I desire to be one.)

Mr Puggsly said:

Instead of clicking those links, I will tell you no state has attempted socialized healthcare is because they haven't come up with an affordable plan. Even the bluest pro-socialism states have not bothered. What the government should probably do is create some non profit clinics or something, compete and show us how lost cost health care is done. The thing is they can't do it.

The links are evidence that directly contradicts your claims. - You don't get to reply, ignoring all of that and then go on to asserting that your position is entirely correct, that would be all kinds of incorrect.
But it does allow me to discard your statements like the one that I just replied to because you haven't met the burden of proof.

Mr Puggsly said:

The things you buy is generally because of capitalism and free market. Generally the most successful and profitable companies create and/or offer services people want. So yeah, quality is part of capitalism unless you have the notion in your head companies don't serve people at all.

Socialism and Capitalism can work together.

Mr Puggsly said:

Some examples of capitalism going awry is not reflective of how things generally work. Some major businesses or products no longer exist often because competition produced something better. So again, serving people quality is still crucial.

I never disagreed with this. Nor am I against Capitalism.
Socialist ideas and Capitalism can and does work together.

Mr Puggsly said:

We rely heavily on many countries for exports. So either we kowtow, work out a better deal, or look elsewhere when we can. I would imagine there are countries that would gladly take trade opportunities from China.

If you think you can give a better deal than China, then that would be your first mistake. - There is a reason for their rapid exponential economic growth, which isn't going to be curbed anytime soon... And the world will continue to look towards China rather than the USA for opportunities.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Bullshit, social services and reasonable safety nets are not SOCIALISM. Dems do this all the time, they equate social programs with socialism. However, we are seeing a real push socialism in the left right now.

There is a ton of different types of socialism, there is no singular definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Politics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism#Bismarck's_social_policy

I am also not a Democrat. I am not even American. (Nor would I desire to be one.)

Mr Puggsly said:

Instead of clicking those links, I will tell you no state has attempted socialized healthcare is because they haven't come up with an affordable plan. Even the bluest pro-socialism states have not bothered. What the government should probably do is create some non profit clinics or something, compete and show us how lost cost health care is done. The thing is they can't do it.

The links are evidence that directly contradicts your claims. - You don't get to reply, ignoring all of that and then go on to asserting that your position is entirely correct, that would be all kinds of incorrect.
But it does allow me to discard your statements like the one that I just replied to because you haven't met the burden of proof.

Mr Puggsly said:

The things you buy is generally because of capitalism and free market. Generally the most successful and profitable companies create and/or offer services people want. So yeah, quality is part of capitalism unless you have the notion in your head companies don't serve people at all.

Socialism and Capitalism can work together.

Mr Puggsly said:

Some examples of capitalism going awry is not reflective of how things generally work. Some major businesses or products no longer exist often because competition produced something better. So again, serving people quality is still crucial.

I never disagreed with this. Nor am I against Capitalism.
Socialist ideas and Capitalism can and does work together.

Mr Puggsly said:

We rely heavily on many countries for exports. So either we kowtow, work out a better deal, or look elsewhere when we can. I would imagine there are countries that would gladly take trade opportunities from China.

If you think you can give a better deal than China, then that would be your first mistake. - There is a reason for their rapid exponential economic growth, which isn't going to be curbed anytime soon... And the world will continue to look towards China rather than the USA for opportunities.

Instead of arguing semantics about socialism, I'll just stress republicans aren't opposed entirely to safety nets (social programs). But democrats are leaning heavy into the welfare state and socialism in general.

Socialism and capitalism are antithetical. Social programs and capitalism is a different story. On a side note, we can't have open borders and welfare state, Australia knows that. But democrats are leaning towards less border security.

I wasn't implying the US was going to give better deals than China. Many countries import to the US because we have more buying power, the tariff thing is happening because Trump feels we're getting a bad deal on exports.

 

 



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Mr Puggsly said:

Socialism and capitalism are antithetical. Social programs and capitalism is a different story. On a side note, we can't have open borders and welfare state, Australia knows that. But democrats are leaning towards less border security.

Well. We don't have open borders, we have some of the strictest immigration laws in the world, with tons of background checking.
But that still isn't enough for some people. (Apparently you can't please everyone, who would have thought?)

Welfare needs to be kept minimal, but also needs to be extremely efficient.
"Free" Education and Healthcare, concessions for housing, electricity, water and so on go a long way to assisting to that end.

Mr Puggsly said:

I wasn't implying the US was going to give better deals than China. Many countries import to the US because we have more buying power, the tariff thing is happening because Trump feels we're getting a bad deal on exports.

The point is, Tariffs aren't doing the US any favors in regards to buying power.
Why would we want to do business with the US, when they are going to tax everything when we can get a better deal with China?



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

I've always been curious about this... When seeing these charts about how much money each country spends on defense/military/etc, do the charts take into account the value of a dollar in each of these countries? It costs about $1500 per week to provide for my family here in Chicago. If I took that money to China, it would probably last much longer. Wouldn't that have an impact on cost for each country as well?

I remember a co-worker of mine who was from Ukraine, and he would tell me how he would get paid about a dollar per hour, yet somehow, he was still able to provide for himself. It just doesn't add up.



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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Socialism and capitalism are antithetical. Social programs and capitalism is a different story. On a side note, we can't have open borders and welfare state, Australia knows that. But democrats are leaning towards less border security.

Well. We don't have open borders, we have some of the strictest immigration laws in the world, with tons of background checking.
But that still isn't enough for some people. (Apparently you can't please everyone, who would have thought?)

Welfare needs to be kept minimal, but also needs to be extremely efficient.
"Free" Education and Healthcare, concessions for housing, electricity, water and so on go a long way to assisting to that end.

Mr Puggsly said:

I wasn't implying the US was going to give better deals than China. Many countries import to the US because we have more buying power, the tariff thing is happening because Trump feels we're getting a bad deal on exports.

The point is, Tariffs aren't doing the US any favors in regards to buying power.
Why would we want to do business with the US, when they are going to tax everything when we can get a better deal with China?

I think we agree on the first part. A majority of the country isn't opposed to safety nets per se, but if the US isn't gonna be efficient about it then its gonna develop opposition. Also, we just aren't big fans of high taxes. People in this country tend to move from cities/states with high living costs and taxes. Major cities are seeing an exodus for this very reason, they tend to lean into left wing ideology.

Well ideally, I think the end of this tariff war would be lowered tariffs from all countries. That's essentially the point. Its arguably working well with Europe, might not end well with China, but we'll see.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Well ideally, I think the end of this tariff war would be lowered tariffs from all countries. That's essentially the point. Its arguably working well with Europe, might not end well with China, but we'll see.

You might want to read this article first before claiming that Trump tariffs on the European union was a good thing.  If anything it's the same thing where Trump has no clue about international trade and he blindly believes something without doing any real research whether or not what he believes is true.  Its NAFTA all over again where he says something stupid, without first finding out the facts first.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/09/reuters-america-factbox-import-tariffs-eu-versus-united-states.html

Here is Trump arguing that we have a Trade deficit with Canada.  It's one thing to be wrong, it's another to double down when you are wrong and look stupid to the word that you do not do your homework before going into meetings to discuss import stuff that affect people's livelihood.  This is the kind of idiocy people continue to champion.  Why would anyone believe Trump when he makes deals or go into negotiations if he actually spent any time doing his job and being prepared.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/378553-trump-we-do-have-a-trade-deficit-with-canada



Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well ideally, I think the end of this tariff war would be lowered tariffs from all countries. That's essentially the point. Its arguably working well with Europe, might not end well with China, but we'll see.

You might want to read this article first before claiming that Trump tariffs on the European union was a good thing.  If anything it's the same thing where Trump has no clue about international trade and he blindly believes something without doing any real research whether or not what he believes is true.  Its NAFTA all over again where he says something stupid, without first finding out the facts first.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/09/reuters-america-factbox-import-tariffs-eu-versus-united-states.html

Here is Trump arguing that we have a Trade deficit with Canada.  It's one thing to be wrong, it's another to double down when you are wrong and look stupid to the word that you do not do your homework before going into meetings to discuss import stuff that affect people's livelihood.  This is the kind of idiocy people continue to champion.  Why would anyone believe Trump when he makes deals or go into negotiations if he actually spent any time doing his job and being prepared.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/378553-trump-we-do-have-a-trade-deficit-with-canada

You clearly have an agenda, not saying its entirely wrong, while Trump has some goals I'm not even sure will be accomplished.

Either it ends with something to boast about or its a failure for his administration. Maybe it will be both.



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