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Forums - Movies & TV - Solo Headed To Become A Flop? Yep, It Flopped.

 

How Much Will Solo Make WW?

Under $700M 56 60.87%
 
$700M-$800M 18 19.57%
 
$801M-$900M 12 13.04%
 
$901M-$1B 3 3.26%
 
Over $1B 3 3.26%
 
Total:92
thismeintiel said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:
Saying Disney doesn't care about how much it could have made is ridiculous. There's this thing that businesses will always look at called opportunity cost

It's strange the lengths people go to defend the direction of this new Disney SW.  Not even using hyperbole, as much as just out and out lying.  I have to say it is hilarious to read the comments from some before Solo released.  Basically bragging about how much TLJ made, even though it was greatly below expectations.  And saying stuff like, "You crybabies/incels/misogynists can boycott all you like, the films will still be hits since your group is so minuscule." Now, we actually have the next film being a flop, and it's, "Uh, you guys didn't do it.  It's because...uh...uh...(grabs reason out of butt), cause you guys are so minuscule."

Actually I believe the so called nazis/facists/misogynists etc are the far majority. And this is one of the reasons Solo took a bit hit and I believe next star wars movies also will. If it was a minority then it would not make a difference.

Sjw are the minority, but a very organized, loud and troublemaker minority. Capable of destroyng your life because of a tweet of 8 years ago when you were a drunk teenager. 

The next numbered SW will be a success, but probably way below ep8, which was already below ep7. I wont be watching it on the movies. Maybe later on netflix only.



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NightlyPoe said:
thismeintiel said:

1. SW has been a great performer at the FBO.  Even when it was small.  You guys focus on percentages, because you think that proves your point, but all it shows is that SW was HUGE in US/Canada.  ANH made $1.31B (adjusted) at the FBO, without the huge market that is China today.  So, just because it made $1.28B in NA, causing FBO to be 50.6%, that means its not a cultural touchstone?  What flawed logic.

You act like the world is just looking through a window at the US for their SJW crap.  They aren't.  They got that shit happening in their own countries.  News Flash, not everyone in those countries agrees with it.  And yes, it can ruin their enjoyment of a cultural touchstone, which it is in many countries, like SW.

2. Maybe you are the one in the echochambers.  Was the NFL thing covered everywhere?  Sure.  However, the NFL didn't bash their fans for disagreeing with the players.  And now that they know it will cost them more if they keep it going, they have changed their policy.  The TLJ controversy was also covered by a lot of people.  Of course, it is just one movie, not a game that gets played every week, so its not going to come up as often.  However, because Disney bashed its fans, there was a much larger fan backlash.  That is evident on social media, like Twitter and Youtube, and in ticket sales.  And no, Disney didn't personally issue a statement.  But there silence as Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, Jon Kasdan, etc. pushed their agenda and bashed those who disagree speaks volumes.

3. The only time I said the vast majority was in context to why the SJWs at Disney and in the media are freaking out.  They do honestly think that the people who think like I do about the new SW, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, are a minuscule portion of the fanbase, while the people who think like them are the vast majority.  That's why they are having their minds blown at the disappointing performance of TLJ and the flop that is Solo, even though they think it should be perfectly fine to attack these "bigots" online or put their agendas in the film.  It's a rude awakening for them.  I realize that you actually agree with them, but there's nothing that's going to change your mind, even if Ep 9 flops or greatly underpeforms next year, so whatever.  I guess it will still be fatigue, lol.

Lol, its funny how you guys can just stick your fingers in your ears consistently, ignoring everything around you.  There is no way anyone with any sense can say something like that seriously, which is why I know you are just saying this as you have no other argument.  The TLJ was supposed to do ~$1.8B.  It did $470M less than that.  We now have the first ever SW flop.  And on top of that, toy sales have dropped ever since TLJ released.  Oh, but all is well.

1.  Star Wars did well in other countries, but it is nowhere near as big in them.  The enthusiasm is less durable.  Hence, we're seeing the faster erosion from there because of, hate to break it to you, franchise fatigue.

Unless you can convince me that the rest of the world is more sick of American SJW stuff than Americans themselves, I'm not sure what argument you think you're making.

2.  I generally ignore both controversies, so no, I'm not in any echo chamber whatsoever.  But of the two, the NFL one is easily the that is more difficult to stay away from.  People get legitimately upset on both sides if you disagree.  I've yet to hear in my normal everyday life, anyone talk about TLJ and how terrible it is that someone called fans bigots.  BTW, the NFL didn't put the issue to rest, they basically left it up to teams how they'll handle the situation.  Some teams have already stated that they will pay the fine.

As I said, you're in an echo chamber.  All you've really proven is that social media sites have good algorithms for anticipating what it is you'll want to click on next which makes reality more difficult to discern.  Just because it pops up on your feeds, doesn't mean that everyone cares.

Also, you still haven't provided anyone of importance (not the writer of a novel for goodness sake) attacking the fanbase.

3.  I told you, I'm a Republican.  I don't agree with them at all, and think that a few things shouldn't have been in the movie.  But they were relatively minor, like Rose's Canto Bight speech.  Additionally, I hate the Finn character and think he's the worst character so far in Star Wars.  I didn't like the slow motion chase scene or Holdo.  I especially don't believe it was a good idea to go to a 1 movie per year schedule and then force the Solo movie onto the summer schedule, but that's a business mistake, not a political one.  However, everything in TLJ that had Luke/Rey/Ben and its questioning the importance of legends, and then reaffirming them while taking away Rey's innocence at its center was some of the best work yet done in Star Wars and thought the Solo movie turned out to be forgettable, but mostly harmless and I'd love to see a Lando movie.

There's little difference between blind rage and bling love.  There's a large amount of difference between those two and open criticism.

4.  I asked before, where did this $1.8 billion number come from?

1. Excuses, excuses.  And American SJW?  Again, why the segregation?  SJW is SJW, no matter where it happens.  And yes, it happens in other countries, not just America. And yes, not everyone agrees with it.

2. Social media is everyday.  The world has changed.  Not sure if you are aware of that.  What people say on Twitter can get put on the news within hours.  And the NFL actually has put it to rest.  For now, at least.  You kneel, you pay a fine.  Some teams may choose to pay a fine, but if it sees another ~10% drop this coming season, you can bet your ass they will either stiffen the fine/punishment or they will just ban it altogether.  They still have yet to call their fans bigots. 

And I know how the algorithm works.  But, no algorithm gives a nobody Youtube channel 100s of thousands, or even millions, of views on their vid.  With the vast majority liking the vid.  Speaking of Likes, a larger channel, HISHE has the series How It Should Have Ended.  One of their most popular vids, The Avengers, has ~29M views.  A huge film that made more money than TLJ.  It currently has 237K Likes to 6.2K Dislikes.  The one they did for TLJ, has ~6M views so far, yet 250K Likes to 4.3K Dislikes.  That just shows how passionate the people who disliked that film and said they were done are.  And most of them were serious.  RLM's most viewed vid, after a few of the Plinkett reviews, is their review of TLJ, where they criticized the film. 

3. Some of the best in SW history?  Boy.  Personally, I think it was so poorly executed, with poor reasons for all of it, it destroys any depth that could have been there.  Luke turns from the Jedi?  Ok...why?  "Oh, there was confusion and Ben thought he was going to kill him."  So, how does that lead to Luke just giving up and running away like a little pussy, leaving his fuck up for his best friend and sister, two people he loves, to deal with it all?  It also completely shits on the fact that in TFA, Luke purposely left a map to where he was going, supposedly for them to find him when they 100% needed him.  That also doesn't explain why he gave up on the Jedi for his fuck up.  "Oh, well, they let the Emperor and Vader rise when they were at their peak."  And?  That's it?  This is shit he's already known for decades.  Now, all of a sudden he can't stand it and just wants to die?  Poor reasoning and characterization.

And destroying Rey's innocence?  More like they completely reinforced it, as well as her status as a Mary Sue.  She goes straight for the Dark Side, setting up a possible turn for her, possibly both her and Ben.  Nope, she's not tempted by the Dark Side, at all.  Not even Luke was that innocent.  She even can train herself.  Then, Snoke goes out like a bitch, but we get a decent fight scene with her and Ben.  They defeat the guards, and Ben reaches out a hand and asks her to join a 3rd side.  Not really evil, not necessarily good, but one that can rule the galaxy with order.  This is actually the point in the film where I was like, "Interesting, we could get Ben becoming good, again, or this 3rd side.  I'm actually getting back into thi...Nope, nevermind.  MaRey Sue has to be innocent and 100% on the good side."  And while Ben passes out from the blast of destroying the lightsaber, she hardly gets hurt and runs out just to be there in time to save the Rebels.  Oh, and show off that she is the most powerful Jedi ever WITH ABSOLUTELY NO TRAINING!!

Also, I like Finn.  I guess you are just racist.    But, the problem is they just screwed up any arc he could have had.  One, it would have been more interesting to have him the Jedi, instead of Luke wannabe.  And in the 2nd one, they wasted him by using him as just a side character in the Disney Casino side quest.  No development at all.  In fact, he was about to do something interesting, by sacrificing himself to save others.  This is something he really would have never done before, though they didn't really build up to it in TLJ.  But, of course, like anything good they may have had going, they ruin it.

There were so many interesting things they hinted at in TFA, and even some in TLJ, but ultimately TLJ delivered on none of them.  Actually shitting on most of them.

4.  That was the consensus of movie analysts, which you can be assured was Disney's expectation, too.  It was supposed to make $750M-850M at the DBO.  A few thought it would do better than that.  Even after the steep 2nd weekend drop, they adjusted it to $1.6B.  It couldn't even pull that off.  And on top of that, which people like to continue to ignore so they can claim Disney is "crying straight to the bank," merch sales also took a big dip around and after that film.  Not a good showing.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 03 June 2018

numberwang said:

And people question why many see the media as illegitimate. If I see anyone ever quote Vox on a serious issue again, I'll lose any respect for their argument. I don't even think Buzzfeed would be THIS shameless, although Vice might.



EnricoPallazzo said:
thismeintiel said:

It's strange the lengths people go to defend the direction of this new Disney SW.  Not even using hyperbole, as much as just out and out lying.  I have to say it is hilarious to read the comments from some before Solo released.  Basically bragging about how much TLJ made, even though it was greatly below expectations.  And saying stuff like, "You crybabies/incels/misogynists can boycott all you like, the films will still be hits since your group is so minuscule." Now, we actually have the next film being a flop, and it's, "Uh, you guys didn't do it.  It's because...uh...uh...(grabs reason out of butt), cause you guys are so minuscule."

Actually I believe the so called nazis/facists/misogynists etc are the far majority. And this is one of the reasons Solo took a bit hit and I believe next star wars movies also will. If it was a minority then it would not make a difference.

Sjw are the minority, but a very organized, loud and troublemaker minority. Capable of destroyng your life because of a tweet of 8 years ago when you were a drunk teenager. 

The next numbered SW will be a success, but probably way below ep8, which was already below ep7. I wont be watching it on the movies. Maybe later on netflix only.

The main reason why SW took a big hit after TLJ is because the movie was shit, with a ridiculously bad plot, plot holes, entire lack of character development and too many face-palming moments to count. 

 

If your so called nazis/facists/etc were a majority, then TFA and Rogue One (the movie with the female lead raised by a handicapped black guy, helped by Asians and an Arab pilot) would have flopped too. But no. The only difference between TLJ and those movies? Not races or genders, but the quality.

 

Do good movies, get good numbers. Do shitty movies, get shitty numbers. It's easy to understand. SW managers are now more focused on the sexual identity of the characters than their development or storylines, so they are perfectly unable to do a good movie as long as they don't change completely their way of thinking.



Faelco said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Actually I believe the so called nazis/facists/misogynists etc are the far majority. And this is one of the reasons Solo took a bit hit and I believe next star wars movies also will. If it was a minority then it would not make a difference.

Sjw are the minority, but a very organized, loud and troublemaker minority. Capable of destroyng your life because of a tweet of 8 years ago when you were a drunk teenager. 

The next numbered SW will be a success, but probably way below ep8, which was already below ep7. I wont be watching it on the movies. Maybe later on netflix only.

The main reason why SW took a big hit after TLJ is because the movie was shit, with a ridiculously bad plot, plot holes, entire lack of character development and too many face-palming moments to count. 

 

If your so called nazis/facists/etc were a majority, then TFA and Rogue One (the movie with the female lead raised by a handicapped black guy, helped by Asians and an Arab pilot) would have flopped too. But no. The only difference between TLJ and those movies? Not races or genders, but the quality.

 

Do good movies, get good numbers. Do shitty movies, get shitty numbers. It's easy to understand. SW managers are now more focused on the sexual identity of the characters than their development or storylines, so they are perfectly unable to do a good movie as long as they don't change completely their way of thinking.

I think you misunderstood him.  He's saying "so-called Nazis/fascists/misogynists" because that's what fans are basically being called if they dislike the direction of the new SW, as well as the identity politics being pushed.  But, you are right, if that's what these fans actually were, then TFA and RO would have flopped.



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NightlyPoe said:
thismeintiel said:

1. Excuses, excuses.  And American SJW?  Again, why the segregation?  SJW is SJW, no matter where it happens.  And yes, it happens in other countries, not just America. And yes, not everyone agrees with it.

2. Social media is everyday.  The world has changed.  Not sure if you are aware of that.  What people say on Twitter can get put on the news within hours.  And the NFL actually has put it to rest.  For now, at least.  You kneel, you pay a fine.  Some teams may choose to pay a fine, but if it sees another ~10% drop this coming season, you can bet your ass they will either stiffen the fine/punishment or they will just ban it altogether.  They still have yet to call their fans bigots. 

And I know how the algorithm works.  But, no algorithm gives a nobody Youtube channel 100s of thousands, or even millions, of views on their vid.  With the vast majority liking the vid.  Speaking of Likes, a larger channel, HISHE has the series How It Should Have Ended.  One of their most popular vids, The Avengers, has ~29M views.  A huge film that made more money than TLJ.  It currently has 237K Likes to 6.2K Dislikes.  The one they did for TLJ, has ~6M views so far, yet 250K Likes to 4.3K Dislikes.  That just shows how passionate the people who disliked that film and said they were done are.  And most of them were serious.  RLM's most viewed vid, after a few of the Plinkett reviews, is their review of TLJ, where they criticized the film. 

3. Some of the best in SW history?  Boy.  Personally, I think it was so poorly executed, with poor reasons for all of it, it destroys any depth that could have been there.  Luke turns from the Jedi?  Ok...why?  "Oh, there was confusion and Ben thought he was going to kill him."  So, how does that lead to Luke just giving up and running away like a little pussy, leaving his fuck up for his best friend and sister, two people he loves, to deal with it all?  It also completely shits on the fact that in TFA, Luke purposely left a map to where he was going, supposedly for them to find him when they 100% needed him.  That also doesn't explain why he gave up on the Jedi for his fuck up.  "Oh, well, they let the Emperor and Vader rise when they were at their peak."  And?  That's it?  This is shit he's already known for decades.  Now, all of a sudden he can't stand it and just wants to die?  Poor reasoning and characterization.

And destroying Rey's innocence?  More like they completely reinforced it, as well as her status as a Mary Sue.  She goes straight for the Dark Side, setting up a possible turn for her, possibly both her and Ben.  Nope, she's not tempted by the Dark Side, at all.  Not even Luke was that innocent.  She even can train herself.  Then, Snoke goes out like a bitch, but we get a decent fight scene with her and Ben.  They defeat the guards, and Ben reaches out a hand and asks her to join a 3rd side.  Not really evil, not necessarily good, but one that can rule the galaxy with order.  This is actually the point in the film where I was like, "Interesting, we could get Ben becoming good, again, or this 3rd side.  I'm actually getting back into thi...Nope, nevermind.  MaRey Sue has to be innocent and 100% on the good side."  And while Ben passes out from the blast of destroying the lightsaber, she hardly gets hurt and runs out just to be there in time to save the Rebels.  Oh, and show off that she is the most powerful Jedi ever WITH ABSOLUTELY NO TRAINING!!

Also, I like Finn.  I guess you are just racist.    But, the problem is they just screwed up any arc he could have had.  One, it would have been more interesting to have him the Jedi, instead of Luke wannabe.  And in the 2nd one, they wasted him by using him as just a side character in the Disney Casino side quest.  No development at all.  In fact, he was about to do something interesting, by sacrificing himself to save others.  This is something he really would have never done before, though they didn't really build up to it in TLJ.  But, of course, like anything good they may have had going, they ruin it.

There were so many interesting things they hinted at in TFA, and even some in TLJ, but ultimately TLJ delivered on none of them.  Actually shitting on most of them.

4.  That was the consensus of movie analysts, which you can be assured was Disney's expectation, too.  It was supposed to make $750M-850M at the DBO.  A few thought it would do better than that.  Even after the steep 2nd weekend drop, they adjusted it to $1.6B.  It couldn't even pull that off.  And on top of that, which people like to continue to ignore so they can claim Disney is "crying straight to the bank," merch sales also took a big dip around and after that film.  Not a good showing.

1.  Different cultures have different sets of concerns and beliefs.  You have not given me anything that makes me believe that the rest of the world is significantly more hostile to fairly mild SJW material than Americans.

2.  Umm, okay.  Star Wars ups viewership.  That's not exactly a surprise.  Also, negativity attracts even more clicks.  Again, not a surprise.  As our old friend Arlo pointed out that negative videos tend to attract more views than positive videos (even on a mostly positive channel like his).  Youtube commentators thrive on hot takes, even unpopular ones.  It doesn't mean that it makes up a majority of viewers in anything.  How much of a bump in name recognition did Jim Sterling get for giving Breath of the Wild a mediocre review?

There may be people who didn't like the movie, but it's not as universal as you seem to believe.  You're just stuck looking for ways to prove your point.

3.  First, I should note that I do not have a high opinion of TFA.  It was shallow as can be and its lack of a gameplan for the full trilogy.  The "mystery boxes" were always empty.  Abrams is the master of creating shallow entertainment that fools people into thinking he has depth.  It's a terrible way to make movies and the only good thing I can say about his being hired is that at least it got him away from Star Trek.

Your complaints about Luke in exile should be directed at TFA.  It has the map to a guy trying to hide.  And it has Luke hiding while the galaxy goes to hell.  They literally stuck him there because they were afraid he'd overpower the movie.  The map, at least, has an explanation as everyone knew that Luke was going to fine the Jedi Temple (per Han's dialogue), they just didn't know where that was.  Hence the need for a map.

I'm not sure what better explanation you wanted for why Luke was hiding on a planet, but TLJ's explanation of his being responsible in a moment of weakness of sending his nephew to the Dark Side and getting the rest of his students either killed or sent to the Dark Side as well serves for a perfectly valid reason why he would be ashamed and broken.

Rey being a Mary Sue was also a problem with TFA.  TLJ couldn't rectify it, but they did tone it down a bit and even had her completely outmatched by Snoke and needing to be saved.  She tried to trust Ben, but he still had too much hate.  There was no 3rd way, just Anakin Skywalker's plan all over again.  Also, different people get injured in separate ways during accidents.  There's nothing even strange about Ben being knocked unconscious while Rey had time to get away.

Finn is a former child soldier and the comedy relief character.  That, to quote Mark Hamill, it's a conceptual nightmare that can't be fixed and is flat out offensive combination.  He adds nothing to the series.

4.  Oh, so it wasn't the studio.  It was analysts that you... won't actually cite.  Gotcha.

1.  I have sales numbers to point to.  You don't lose those from some fabled fatigue.  Especially when that fatigue supposedly only activated for the 3rd movie in 3 years.  Man, people got tired of SW faster than some other franchises.  Crazy since the first two films were absolute hits.  And what will be the excuse if Ep 9 bombs, or greatly underperforms, and its been 1 1/2 years since Solo?  Still fatigue?  But, you can interpret those numbers however you wish.

2.  Yes, negativity attracts clicks.  But not just from those who absolutely agree with the person.  It also attracts people who disagree.  Your Jim Sterling example proves that very well.  Death threats with 100s of thumbs up.  Likewise, for the SW videos there should be tons of comments that disagree, and that Like Bar shouldn't be so one-sided if there were so many who disagreed with them.  Kinda like what happened with the Ghostbusters '16 trailer.

3. It doesn't matter if the "boxes" were empty.  This is where a competent writer and/or director steps in and fills those boxes with great reveals.  Not a hack who comes in and basically trolls the fandom in the name of subversion for subversion's sake.  And no, Luke was not going to hide (and die.)  That was the BS Rian Johnson came up with.  You don't go to hide from the world and make a map to your exact location.  The movie made it more like he was searching for something.

Nope, that's a very shitty reason.  This is freaking Luke here.  The guy who was told by both Yoda and Obi Wan that he may have to sacrifice his friends in order for him to live and to become a great Jedi who could take on the Emperor and Vader.  Not Luke.  He would not leave his friends to die, even if he had just a small a chance to save them.  This is also the same Luke that was told Vader was too far gone to save.  There was no chance to get his father back.  But, Luke sensed some good still in him and he refused to give up.  These are the exact same complaints Mark Hamil told Rian, Luke would not give up and he would have tried everything to save his nephew.  And he sure as fuck would not have saddled his sister and best friend with his fuck up, running off to die.

Yes, Rey was a Mary Sue in TFA.  However, many thought that may be explained by some Jedi lineage and she would train further with Luke.  It wouldn't have fixed it, but it would have helped a lot.  TLJ actually worsens the problem.  Not only does she not train (5 secs of flinging around a lightsaber does not count), she turns out to be the daughter of drunk nobodies, AND she's shown to be the most powerful Jedi EVER.  She can take down Elite Guards, even though its only her 2nd lightsaber fight.  She can pick up a ton of boulders while barely concentrating.  The only scene where she comes up against resistance is with Snoke, which was supposed to show how powerful he was, not how less of a Mary Sue she is.  Though, he still goes out like a bitch in the end.  In fact, given the other scenes, it actually feels out of place.

As for Ben getting hurt, and not MaRey Sue, that's just BS.  They were in the middle of a symmetrical room.  They flew back the exact same way.  It just served to show her more of a Mary Sue and it ruined Ben's intimidation factor, as he's easily knocked out and wakes up like minutes later, with Hux almost killing him beforehand.  It also creates yet another plot hole.  He wakes up minutes later, I'd say at least 10-15 mins since she has time to escape.  Then, they have time to land AT-ATs (very far away for some reason), have the shitty craft scene, but Rey gets there just in time to save everyone?  She should have been there ages ago, inside with them.  There are just so many of these holes in plot and logic that it is impossible to enjoy that film.

Finn didn't have to be a comedy relief character.  In fact, he does more than that in TFA, while still being humorous.  Rian is the one who chose not to do anything with him and stick him with comedy relief.  We could have had him trying to run away like a coward, at first, wanting to meet up with Rey and skip town.  But then he eventually sacrifices himself for his friends.  Maybe that causes Rey to join Ben in this 3rd option, to finally end the war.  Or maybe they actually do something with him and Phasma, instead of jack.  There are many more options than that.  Any of them more interesting than Finn/Rose side quest.  Hmm.  The only black lead relegated to the comic relief and no real character development.  Using Lucasfilm's logic, that says a lot about Rian Johnson.

4.  Google is your friend.  I did enough citing in the TLJ thread.  If you want to not believe me, that's your choice.  Just know that you are wrong.



numberwang said:

Of course Vox says that. 



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NightlyPoe said:
thismeintiel said:

1.  I have sales numbers to point to.  You don't lose those from some fabled fatigue.  Especially when that fatigue supposedly only activated for the 3rd movie in 3 years.  Man, people got tired of SW faster than some other franchises.  Crazy since the first two films were absolute hits.  And what will be the excuse if Ep 9 bombs, or greatly underperforms, and its been 1 1/2 years since Solo?  Still fatigue?  But, you can interpret those numbers however you wish.

2.  Yes, negativity attracts clicks.  But not just from those who absolutely agree with the person.  It also attracts people who disagree.  Your Jim Sterling example proves that very well.  Death threats with 100s of thumbs up.  Likewise, for the SW videos there should be tons of comments that disagree, and that Like Bar shouldn't be so one-sided if there were so many who disagreed with them.  Kinda like what happened with the Ghostbusters '16 trailer.

3. It doesn't matter if the "boxes" were empty.  This is where a competent writer and/or director steps in and fills those boxes with great reveals.  Not a hack who comes in and basically trolls the fandom in the name of subversion for subversion's sake.  And no, Luke was not going to hide (and die.)  That was the BS Rian Johnson came up with.  You don't go to hide from the world and make a map to your exact location.  The movie made it more like he was searching for something.

Nope, that's a very shitty reason.  This is freaking Luke here.  The guy who was told by both Yoda and Obi Wan that he may have to sacrifice his friends in order for him to live and to become a great Jedi who could take on the Emperor and Vader.  Not Luke.  He would not leave his friends to die, even if he had just a small a chance to save them.  This is also the same Luke that was told Vader was too far gone to save.  There was no chance to get his father back.  But, Luke sensed some good still in him and he refused to give up.  These are the exact same complaints Mark Hamil told Rian, Luke would not give up and he would have tried everything to save his nephew.  And he sure as fuck would not have saddled his sister and best friend with his fuck up, running off to die.

Yes, Rey was a Mary Sue in TFA.  However, many thought that may be explained by some Jedi lineage and she would train further with Luke.  It wouldn't have fixed it, but it would have helped a lot.  TLJ actually worsens the problem.  Not only does she not train (5 secs of flinging around a lightsaber does not count), she turns out to be the daughter of drunk nobodies, AND she's shown to be the most powerful Jedi EVER.  She can take down Elite Guards, even though its only her 2nd lightsaber fight.  She can pick up a ton of boulders while barely concentrating.  The only scene where she comes up against resistance is with Snoke, which was supposed to show how powerful he was, not how less of a Mary Sue she is.  Though, he still goes out like a bitch in the end.  In fact, given the other scenes, it actually feels out of place.

As for Ben getting hurt, and not MaRey Sue, that's just BS.  They were in the middle of a symmetrical room.  They flew back the exact same way.  It just served to show her more of a Mary Sue and it ruined Ben's intimidation factor, as he's easily knocked out and wakes up like minutes later, with Hux almost killing him beforehand.  It also creates yet another plot hole.  He wakes up minutes later, I'd say at least 10-15 mins since she has time to escape.  Then, they have time to land AT-ATs (very far away for some reason), have the shitty craft scene, but Rey gets there just in time to save everyone?  She should have been there ages ago, inside with them.  There are just so many of these holes in plot and logic that it is impossible to enjoy that film.

Finn didn't have to be a comedy relief character.  In fact, he does more than that in TFA, while still being humorous.  Rian is the one who chose not to do anything with him and stick him with comedy relief.  We could have had him trying to run away like a coward, at first, wanting to meet up with Rey and skip town.  But then he eventually sacrifices himself for his friends.  Maybe that causes Rey to join Ben in this 3rd option, to finally end the war.  Or maybe they actually do something with him and Phasma, instead of jack.  There are many more options than that.  Any of them more interesting than Finn/Rose side quest.  Hmm.  The only black lead relegated to the comic relief and no real character development.  Using Lucasfilm's logic, that says a lot about Rian Johnson.

4.  Google is your friend.  I did enough citing in the TLJ thread.  If you want to not believe me, that's your choice.  Just know that you are wrong.

1.  You have a shaky opinion of what sales numbers mean.  You don't have proof of anything.  There is no proof that half the audience is boycotting to be found.

2.  In this case those that enjoyed the movie just went on with their lives.  It was only a smallish group that was dedicated to tearing it down.  In Breath of the Wild's case, people were sitting there watching Metacritic and were angry that someone ruined the score.  Different situations.  Same thing happened with Black Panther when someone gave it a negative review and people were angry even though the movie hadn't come out yet.

For the most part, those that like TLJ don't really care if someone else doesn't like it.  And I will remind you that the audience scores for TLJ were high.

3.  The mystery boxes were a distraction.  The important ones were answered.  The unimportant ones were discarded.

It wasn't subversion for subversion sake.  It was a well-executed story about the power, humanity, and worth of legends.  You only looked at Luke feeling bad and stopped there, which is a shame.

"It's freaking Luke here" is not a character trait.  Luke was not perfect in the Original Trilogy either.  He has Anakin's flaws, only not as strongly.  This was repeated throughout the OT and it caused him to abandon his training and later almost fall to the Dark Side.  Finally, he made a mistake that he couldn't take back.  It works as character motivation if you understand that he's a man beneath the legend.  The movie tried to challenge you and you failed I'm afraid.

Rey being overpowered was unfixable.  Giving her a Jedi lineage does nothing to make her so overpowered so quickly.  All that could be done is to bring her down a peg.  The most powerful potential Force-user on record was born to slavery on Tatooine.  Not sure what lineage has to do with anything.

There's nothing wrong with one person getting injured and another being okay in an accident.  I have no idea why you think that two people in a room on a ship that just suffered an explosion have to be injured exactly the same.  That's just a silly complaint with no merit whatsoever even in the real world.

Finn was awful in TFA as well.  He's a lost cause that will always bring down the film whenever's he's in it and not worth discussing.  They should just kill him off and cut their losses.

4.  I don't do your research for you.

Ok, I'm just going to stop this convo here.  Lol, I'm just afraid I can't take the whole "TLJ was so deep and you haters just didn't get it" talk and take the conversation seriously anymore.  That movie was as deep as a puddle after a light rain.  But hey, I'll be here when Ep 9 underperforms because "fatigue."  Or maybe you'll be right and after 1 1/2 years SW will rebound and make another $2B.



Expecting $750-$800 mill for TLJ is a bit laughably high in expectation, don't you think?

Avengers: Infinity War is probably not even going to hit $700 million, let alone $750 mill.

Star Wars doesn't have that kind of pull without massive build-up/hype for 10+ years that makes the movie a special event. The second chapter of a Star Wars usually has a 30%+ drop from the opening chapter, the big reason is "normal people" don't need to see the second chapter.

Also no Harrison Ford and good luck ... you're stuck with a galaxy full of overrated characters in terms of modern audience appeal. Just because Star Wars fans think having a cool lightsaber and a pony tail makes an awesome character alone doesn't mean the general average film viewer who is OK with Star Wars but isn't fanatical about it is going to care that much to watch a middle chapter of a Star Wars trilogy multiple times (which is basically the only way to hit $700 mill or more).



Soundwave said:
Expecting $750-$800 mill for TLJ is a bit laughably high in expectation, don't you think?

Avengers: Infinity War is probably not even going to hit $700 million, let alone $750 mill.

Star Wars doesn't have that kind of pull without massive build-up/hype for 10+ years that makes the movie a special event. The second chapter of a Star Wars usually has a 30%+ drop from the opening chapter, the big reason is "normal people" don't need to see the second chapter.

Also no Harrison Ford and good luck ... you're stuck with a galaxy full of overrated characters in terms of modern audience appeal. Just because Star Wars fans think having a cool lightsaber and a pony tail makes an awesome character alone doesn't mean the general average film viewer who is OK with Star Wars but isn't fanatical about it is going to care that much to watch a middle chapter of a Star Wars trilogy multiple times (which is basically the only way to hit $700 mill or more).

 

Umm... i'm not disagreeing with the point, but do you mean domesticly in the US? Because TLJ did above 1billion and infinity war is close to hitting 2 billion. Also, you just need to go on youtube to find out that Star Wars fans have been up in arms for quite a while about the social agendas being pushed into the movies and the disregard for the source material. Solo is the culmination of that. There is/was a boycott campaign for the movie from fans. I can only hope Disney takes action after the flop and removes Kathleen Kennedy. It might even already be too late. The woman has ruined the SW brand and is gonna leave Disney with a dud of an aquisition.