Shadow1980 said:
thismeintiel said:
Gross mischaracterization.
1. Alright, hotshot, how bout you address one of the HUGE plotholes that even those who claim to love the movie won't even try to address because they know there is no answer, and even dwelling on it could ruin the movie for them. Keep in mind this is the MAIN plot of the film. They had 18 hrs of fuel. In that 18 hrs, why did the Order not call another ship in to block their path or be within a few feet behind them, and then blast them? Or, since they can track exactly where they are and currently have their exact location, jump to lightspeed then jump back right behind them or in front of them? Or if lightspeed is now a weapon, why didn't they have some of their smaller ships jump right through their ship and blow it to hell, ending the whole thing? There's a reason we have never had any of these slow speed BS chases in the other films.
2. No one gives a shit if it didn't go EXACTLY as they had planned. There are countless theories and speculation about what was going to happen. You couldn't have done them all. But, any one of those theories were tons better than what we got. A big bunch of nothing and unanswered questions. We asked for something, but got nothing. SW is supposed to be an epic. Not mundane and boring, something that also hurt parts of the prequels. And it deserves much better than the continuation of the Mary Sue character. Especially when before Mary Sue, we had a strong, realistic woman in Princess Leia. And like I said before, this isn't a new movie in a new film franchise. It is the continuation of a hugely popular trilogy that hundreds of millions have seen. You can't just hit the reset button on the political structure of the galaxy without explaining that shit. To act like wanting answers to those questions is too much is just ridiculous.
And those lines are just Disney's way of telling the fans "Fuck the OG trilogy, the franchise is ours to do with it what we want." I mean, they could of meant something in the actual movie if they led to anything interesting, which they did not. Just the same old Rebellion vs Empire story they claim they are changing. And the salt was an obvious attempt to be like, "Hey, guys, it's totally not Hoth. It's salt, not snow. Nope, not Hoth. Nope, nope."
3. Sorry, but the MASSIVE drop in user ratings and box office draw can't be explained by trolls, or the Alt-Right, like some want to believe. People just did not like the film. They aren't lining up in droves to watch it, again. And again. And again. And they are telling their friends how poor it was, too.
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1. "Why didn't the First Order do this? Why didn't they do that?" You're acting like questionable tactical choices are a new thing in Star Wars. If you think too hard about it, you might come to the realization that maybe, just maybe, the Rebels had a really shitty strategy during the Battle of Yavin 4, as an example. And the Empire in the OT was incredibly incompetent. They, like many other fictional villains in well-regarded titles, were frequently inept, often did things "for the evulz," and exhibited extreme hubris, often paying for it dearly. You could argue that Mr. "Hold your fire. There's no life forms. It must have short-circuited" was responsible for the downfall of the Empire. But if he did the smart thing, the movie, and the series, would have been over in 15 minutes... like many other movies and TV series, even well-regarded ones. Yet nobody bats an eye at dumb tactics & strategies in classic films because nostalgia. But the FO engages in stupid, hubristic tactics and suddenly they, and by extension TLJ itself, gets shit on by the fanbase, because "LOL nuWars." It's all a bunch of molehill mountaineering.
2. Unanswered questions, huh? Let's look at one of the biggest ones: "Who is Snoke?" TLJ didn't give any background on Snoke, but so what? It's not important to the plot. The OT told us jack shit about Palpatine, and he didn't even show up in the flesh until ROTJ, dying in the climax with nary a trace of any background. We just know he's that mysterious leader of the Empire mentioned in ANH and briefly shown via hologram in ESB. We had to wait another 13 years to get any further development on his character in the films.
"You can't just hit the reset button on the political structure of the galaxy without explaining that shit." Sure they can. Yeah, maybe they could have added a bunch of long-winded exposition to TFA and TLJ about trade deals what happened to the galacto-political landscape in the 30-year time skip... or just save the details of world-building for books and comics for the hardcore fans that want to know more, which they are doing.
And if Rey is a Mary Sue, then Luke is a Marty Stu.
3. People deliberately giving the movie one-star and half-star ratings on RT isn't trolling? Review bombing is a real thing, and it's a dick move intended to potentially undermine the film/show/game/etc. More casual audiences that aren't hardcore SW fans of 30+ years like yours truly could be influenced to not view the movie by extremely exaggerated claims of it being a literally horrible film deserving of the same rating one would give schlock like Ishtar, Leonard Part 6, Battlefield Earth, or, well, any movie on this list. TLJ is not a bad movie. Imperfect, but incredibly entertaining. Spoiled nerds with an overblown sense of entitlement are deliberately attempting sabotaging the box office potential of this film. The blind rage I've seen over TLJ is totally unwarranted. Some people need to chill the fuck out and learn to enjoy a movie.
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1. Lol, wow, what stretch. You're honestly going to compare the stupid call of a grunt, in a scene that lasts 1 min, with the grand plan from the Order, in an event that is the main plot of the film and takes place over the course of 18 hrs? There's a reason people call the flaws of the OG nitpicks, while this is a huge gaping hole. There's also a reason Lucas was never so stupid to focus the plot of his film on a turtle VS turtle race.
2. Sorry, there's no more argument on this topic. This is not the new movie in a new franchise. We've seen ROTJ. We know how that ended. You don't get a pass for being a lazy writer who can't think up a couple simple scenes to explain it.
Same thing, no more argument. If your character is the text book definition of a Mary Sue, they are a Mary Sue. And Luke is one? OK, now I know you have never watched the OT.
3. Entitled nerds? Wow, can only fight their opinion with insults? Those nerds deserve to be entitled. Without them there would only be one SW movie that would have failed at the box office. And there wouldn't have been a reason for these movies to exist. To think these movies only belong to Hollywood is the true feeling of entitlement. And those low ratings aren't just being left by diehard fans, either.
It's also pathetic that you think they should just eat whatever movie Disney gives them and continue to go to the theaters for repeat viewings, just cause it's hurting the box office. We are not servants to Hollywood. They put out a product. We don't like it, we let it be known and don't show up.
Aura7541 said:
Yep, this video covers much of my complaints with Rey. There were no stakes and no tension, which made her accomplishments come off rather hollow. For example, I actually don't have a problem with the outcome of Rey's fight against Kylo, but rather how she beat Kylo. Earlier in the TFA, the movie establishes Rey as a very cerebral, savvy character. Instead of fighting Kylo head on, she could've used the environment to her advantage to beat him, which would make more sense in the context of her lack of Jedi training and stays consistent with her character.
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EXACTLY. Instead, they make her a Mary Sue who can take him on, one on one. And people need to stop using the excuse that he's injured. Go back and watch that fight. He's jumping and moving all over the place, still swinging his lightsaber like he's completely fine.
Nautilus said:
Having just watched the movie, I honestly found it extremely good and I honestly dont understand all this hate it is getting.Sure it has some wtf moments that should have been done better, like Leia being blown and thrown to space but somehow uses the force, something she never used before, to save herself.And Finn being a less than useful charachter, specially since he is the only clone to ever break away from the empire and not exployting that concept and simply brushing it off as an genetic error.But other than that, The Last Jedi was an espectacle, with excellent writing and good humor.It is an excellent movie, and a movie that I recommend to anyone to watch.
Now, I will now speculate why people are upset about the movie, but since I can see this opinion getting a significant backlash, Im not answering anyone back that dosent respond with reason or arguments to back it up.Honestly, I think nostalgia is blinding people to be objective to the movie.Hell, I will go even farther than that and say that it is literally impossible for a new Star Wars film to be considered great ever again.If Disney tries to play too safe, you get episode VII, and people will say "ah, its too similar to the old movies"!But if Disney tries to do something more original(and by that, they NEED to implement new stuff that the Force can do, or situations that you might imply is not very Star Wars-ish), people will then complain that it dosent feel like Star Wars and wont like it.It will be simply impossible to keep the fans happy, plain and simple, because it will be impossible to meet the standarts that the fans want them to reach, simply because there isnt a movie that can do what they want.Sure that the film is not perfect, it has some flaws as the ones that I just said the paragraph before, but its a great movie.
Its not like some fans complaining about the movie will stop Star Wars from being successful ever again.This movie will probably raise it to new heights, but its disheartening to see reactions like this.
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This has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. People go back and watch those films almost yearly. They know the flaws in them. They even show them to their kids, who then also fall in love with them, and their story and world, even though they are so old that MOST movies in their era aren't even given the time of day by those same kids.
No, this movie fails on its own merits, or lack thereof. The points set up in TFA are completely dropped or lead to nothing special, making the movie incredibly mundane/boring, while taking away the hope from people who defended TFA that those unanswered questions would be answered. The humor is out of place and jarring. And that scene that doesn't belong in a SW movie isn't because it's different, but good, it's because it's horribly kid movie generic.
NightlyPoe said:
thismeintiel said:
Oh, would you guys stop it with moving the goal posts. We're no longer trying to compare it tother mainline SW films, cause that makes it look bad. If this movie was good, it doesn't matter the schedule it had, it would be doing gangbusters. And it actually started out fine. WW it was only behind TFA by ~$80M, a drop of ~15%. You could say that was because of the calendar or TFA hype or whatever. But, the calendar does not account for the massive drop it has continued to see. It's not even been two weeks since release and TLJ is already $335M off from TFA, or 32% down. It's only going to continue to get worse.
And no, no it isn't. And fans are letting it be known with their wallets.
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Moving the goal posts? This is the first post I've had on this in this forum about this. I've got dated documentation that I was warning people that the schedule was going to make a big difference.
"Looking forward, this will likely not do nearly as well during its first week as The Force Awakens. Two years ago, the dates lined up perfectly so that all schools were out for its first two weeks in theaters. This year, many, if not most, schools will remain open next week. Not to mention the inescapable fact that it's not the first Star Wars film in a decade. Still, it's virtually guaranteed to top the yearly chart."
And here:
Unfortunately, Christmas Eve is a bad day for box office. So TLJ's going to take a hit next weekend while everyone's doing last-minute shopping and greeting guests on Sunday.
So I actually do know what I'm talking about and predicted exactly this would happen. And, yes, the calendar does make a difference and is predictable. Arguing otherwise is internet posturing. Even The Force Awakens had a dip for Christmas Eve. The Last Jedi had to fight with Christmas shopping all through its 2nd weekend.
And, yes The Last Jedi was better. It actually, my gosh, challenged the audience and made them uncomfortable. The Force Awakens was pure rehashed fluff, and not even all that well put together. It was an embarrassment to a franchise built on imagination.
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Yea, I'm sure you were expecting a dismal fall of ~70%. The largest drop in the series and a God awful number for ANY movie, regardless of the circumstances.
