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Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonia declares independence. Puigdemont free to roam Belgium.

 

Who do you support?

Spain 139 59.40%
 
Catalonia 95 40.60%
 
Total:234
Goodnightmoon said:

The parlament of Catalonia has 135 members, in order to make important decisions they have always needed around 90 votes but they declared themself an independent republic with only 70 votes from politic parties that represents a 48% of the population and using the results of an ilegal referendum with no guarantees and where people was able to vote several times, this is highly antidemocratic.

Was it the case that many abstained from voting at all? According to this article, 70 voted yes, 10 voted no, so I guess the other 55 didn't vote or am I missing something? 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/

"The Catalan resolution, which Madrid has dismissed as illegal, was passed by 70 votes to 10 and caused shares in Spanish companies, particularly Catalan banks, to drop sharply. CaixaBank, Spain's third largest lender, fell by around five per cent while Sabadell, the country's fifth largest lender, fell roughly six per cent."



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Yeahhhhhhh, this wont last long.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

sc94597 said:
Goodnightmoon said:

The parlament of Catalonia has 135 members, in order to make important decisions they have always needed around 90 votes but they declared themself an independent republic with only 70 votes from politic parties that represents a 48% of the population and using the results of an ilegal referendum with no guarantees and where people was able to vote several times, this is highly antidemocratic.

Was it the case that many abstained from voting at all? According to this article, 70 voted yes, 10 voted no, so I guess the other 55 didn't vote or am I missing something? 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/

"The Catalan resolution, which Madrid has dismissed as illegal, was passed by 70 votes to 10 and caused shares in Spanish companies, particularly Catalan banks, to drop sharply. CaixaBank, Spain's third largest lender, fell by around five per cent while Sabadell, the country's fifth largest lender, fell roughly six per cent."


It was a secret votation and the other 55 weren't there, do you understand now how much of a mess is this? To support this is just pathetic imo yet there you have the poll... Either people here is highly antidemocratic or just highly uninformed.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 27 October 2017

The right to self determination is one of the pillars of the Universal Declarion for the Human Rights...

As a Portuguese, I fully support Catalonia, in fact, we fought for the same and on the 1st of December of 1640 we achieved it!!!
Was it legal? You can bet the hell it wasnt :D

Spain is not a country, is an amalgamation of unified kingdoms, most of them against the peoples will...

Not to mention monarchy, I mean, really? In 2017 a little girl with 6 or 7 years old is already decided to be the chief of state when she grows up? Thats ridiculous and an insult to the people! This is not the middle ages...

Down with inherited rights! Long live the conquered rights! Long live the Republic and the Democracy!



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Goodnightmoon said:


It was a secret votation, the other 55 weren't there, do you understand now how much of a mess is this? To support this is just pathetic imo yet there you have the poll... Either people here is highly stupid, highly antidemocratic or just highly uninformed.

Not contesting what you said entirely, but it seems as if some of the opposition were there and left in protest.

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Catalan-parliament-votes-to-declare-independence-from-Spain-453607783.html

"Separatist lawmakers erupted in applause as the vote was approved with 70 votes in favor of independence, 10 against and 2 blank ballots. Most opposition lawmakers had left the chamber in protest moments before the vote."

This is what I heard on NPR as well. If Madrid allowed for an official vote I think "secret votation" wouldn't be a problem.



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sc94597 said:
Goodnightmoon said:


It was a secret votation, the other 55 weren't there, do you understand now how much of a mess is this? To support this is just pathetic imo yet there you have the poll... Either people here is highly stupid, highly antidemocratic or just highly uninformed.

Not contesting what you said entirely, but it seems as if some of the opposition were there and left in protest.

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Catalan-parliament-votes-to-declare-independence-from-Spain-453607783.html

"Separatist lawmakers erupted in applause as the vote was approved with 70 votes in favor of independence, 10 against and 2 blank ballots. Most opposition lawmakers had left the chamber in protest moments before the vote."

This is what I heard on NPR as well. If Madrid allowed for an official vote I think "secret votation" wouldn't be a problem.

Of course they left, cause this is not a legitim thing to vote and it was made with secret votation which makes it just even more ridiculous. Madrid has to reform the constitution to make a legal referendum, that is complicated, I'm don't like how the government of Spain deals with this, but the government of Catalonia has been completely antidemocratic, dishonest and out of the law since the beggining of this process, yet stranger people have swallowed the fake narrative of Catalonia with fries, one of the most independent, free and richest (thanks to Spain) regions of Europe that claims to be opressed. Utterly ridiculous.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 27 October 2017

Although I disagree with socialism (and I know that Catalonia will be a socialist country), I always support any kind of independency or decentralization of power, so congratulations Catalonia. Hope it last.



Tryklon said:

The right to self determination is one of the pillars of the Universal Declarion for the Human Rights...

As a Portuguese, I fully support Catalonia, in fact, we fought for the same and on the 1st of December of 1640 we achieved it!!!
Was it legal? You can bet the hell it wasnt :D

Spain is not a country, is an amalgamation of unified kingdoms, most of them against the peoples will...

Not to mention monarchy, I mean, really? In 2017 a little girl with 6 or 7 years old is already decided to be the chief of state when she grows up? Thats ridiculous and an insult to the people! This is not the middle ages...

Down with inherited rights! Long live the conquered rights! Long live the Republic and the Democracy!

Self determination by a majority, there is no proof independentists are a majority on Catalonia, right now catalonia is a country where probably most people want to stay with Spain and where independentists had been promised to become way richer now when that's a huge lie since they have to leave the EU and most of its exportations go to Spain, a thousand companies have been abandoning Catalonia this weeks. There hasn't been any democratic process to claim self determination, there hasn't been campaign for the YES and for the NO, only for the YES, pure manipulation.

Oh, and there is also Monarchy in many more countries like UK, Netherlands or Denmark, some of the most developed countries in the world, so what's your point?



Goodnightmoon said:

Of course they left, cause this is not a legitim thing to vote and it was made with secret votation which makes it just even more ridiculous. Madrid has to reform the constitution to make a legal referendum, that is complicated, I'm don't like how the government of Spain deals with this, but the government of Catalonia has been completely antidemocratic and out of the law since the beggining of this process, apart from a big liar, yet stranger people have swallowed the fake narrative of Catalonia with fries, one of the most independent, free and richest (thanks to Spain) regions of Europe that claims to be opressed. Utterly ridiculous.

The overwhelming majority of independence movements in history were "illegal" according to the standards of the states they were separating from. That does not make them anti-democratic. That the central authority doesn't give permission in the first place, is inherently anti-democratic itself. All people have the rights to self-determination and freedom of association. 

If Spain worked with Catalonians to make their referendum legal in the first place, I suspect the vote for independence might not have won.. Not because how it was done deprived people of a vote, but because the tactics used by Spain convinced people on the fence to vote for independence. It wasn't like Madrid didn't know this was happening for many months

In a real democracy the people don't need to beg their rulers to vote, they just do it. 



It's a shame what greed does to you.

dyremose said:
As everything this comes down to money and not liberty or cultural independence or whatever they might try and say. Catalonia is one of the richest regions in an otherwise rather poor country of Spain. In Italy the two richest regions are also trying to gain more autonomy or break off with their own country.. Gladly leaving an entire countries economy in the shitter while laughing all the way to the bank.. I hope the Spanish government hits down hard on these destabilisers..



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