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Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonia declares independence. Puigdemont free to roam Belgium.

 

Who do you support?

Spain 139 59.40%
 
Catalonia 95 40.60%
 
Total:234
fatslob-:O said:
Goodnightmoon said:

That has never happened

Then what is Article 155 ? 

Pretty much the same as Germany's Article 37.



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ArchangelMadzz said:
Just let them go. Jesus. Disappointed to see so many Nations standing with Spain's tyrannical government.

Most nations would try to do the same actually, maybe in smarter way, but the same.



Player2 said:

Pretty much the same as Germany's Article 37.

Last I checked Germany doesn't have autonomous regions ... 



Spain is not gonna want to give up Catalonia. It is one of their most economically successful subdivision and is the 2nd most populous of the country. Spain would be weak as shit without them.



 

 

Ka-pi96 said:

Other countries having a shitty, outdated, corrupt and elitist system doesn't make it ok. The French know what to do with monarchies though...

Actually we, as arguably one of the most influential, directly or indirectly, in the workings of most modern day republics, went from being that to becoming the monarchy we are all by people's choice, because we wanted a unifying factor (to put it simply). And now 200 years later the vast, vast majority still wouldn't want it any other way.

The causes that led to the beheadings of the Bourbon family in France and other such revolutions are totally nonexistent now. I realise that comment was probably tongue-in-cheek but please, I hope you know better than to compare a monarchy like the Northern European ones and an absolute monarchy like the French was.

Last edited by S.Peelman - on 28 October 2017

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^^^ And having a Monarchy figure puts a fixed representative for the world. Presidents and Prime Ministers come and go.
I don't like having a privileged family take all the benefits like royalty does, we saw what happened with Urgandarin...
but in the end it's just one instead of a new family every four years.

EDIT: I'm really surprised how nationalistic the dutch are with the King. Your national holiday is the King's Birthday after all. That is something you will never see in Spain.

Player2 said:
dyremose said:
As everything this comes down to money and not liberty or cultural independence or whatever they might try and say. Catalonia is one of the richest regions in an otherwise rather poor country of Spain. In Italy the two richest regions are also trying to gain more autonomy or break off with their own country.. Gladly leaving an entire countries economy in the shitter while laughing all the way to the bank.. I hope the Spanish government hits down hard on these destabilisers..

At first glance it seems to be about money, but it isn't. Money doesn't want an independent Catalonia outside of the Eurozone. Since the 1-O over 1500 businesses have left Catalonia. Before the referendum Catalonia had two banks, now it has none. It had seven of the 35 companies of the IBEX 35, now it has one. Many businessmen have stated how bad it would be.

Except for the crazy folks of the CUP, this is about dodging jail and creating a country they have full control of, so they can turn their corruption up to eleven without consecuences. The biggest nationalist-now-independentist catalonian party (Convergencia) and his founder (Jordi Pujol) have been stealing catalonians (3% corruption scandal, Wikipedia link in spanish for those interested) for decades. Apparently it was vox populi among politicians, but they let it slide until now because Convergencia was a valuable ally for both PP and PSOE in the Spanish Parliament. On top of it Pujol has powerful connections and critical information regarding the corruption of many top dogs (video for those who know spanish or catalonian).

Despite this, some members of Convergencia have ended in jail, and It seems that things can get ugly really fast because Andorra's banking secrecy ends in 2018 and some say that many of the 3% money has been there in the past.

You could say that money leads to corruption. Still you brought up some points that people might not be aware off. It is curious that all of this is happening before Andorra's books become public.

CrazyGamer2017 said:
Those ignorant separatists have been looking for (legal) trouble and they're going to get it. It's about time the Catalonian government is dissolved, they were given an unfair autonomy to begin with. Every part of any country should be held in the same regard and no part should have more power than the others, not only is it unfair to the other regions but sooner or later they must abuse their power by trying to break up the country.
The highest members of that regional government should be judged for treason at the very least.
Tryklon said:

That paternalistic cr*p is getting old. People are on the streets.

And if that shamefully corrupt government of "Spain" is so certain the majority wants to be spanish, why did they not allow a fully authorized referendum?

Oh, let me guess... because they knew the yes would win! Thats it!


Don't try to insult other peoples intelligence. If it comes to elections on the 21st of December ( I doubt they will even listen to what Spain says) we will see which parties are going to win the election!

 

And about the monarchy! yes yes, it is a shameful and ridiculous system and it goes against everything the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

PERIOD!!!!

If only all Spanish citizens were born free and equal through out all the territory. That is Utopian.



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Nymeria said:
Do they have any powerful G-20 nations backing them? In these scenarios have to have that to gain traction.

The main issue is you'd be hard pressed to find a major nation that doesn't face the potential of some independence movement or another gaining some traction via firebreathing populists and the influence social media seems to hold these days.

You know every country there is thinking of Scotland, the Basque regions, Tibet, Dagestan, or even the various native american groups that occasionally attempt independence in the US (I recall a decade ago some members of the Lakota tribe declared their independence, though nothing really came of it); they all know they could be dealing with the same issue one day, and none want to be the next Louis XVI, supporting revolution one moment only to have it show up on his doorstep the next.

For the most part, then, there'll generally be solidarity amongst the larger countries of the world, as there's hardly any that don't have their own potential independence movements that could spring up in the right environment.



sc94597 said:
vivster said:

No matter from what angle I look at it it seems to be along the same stupid populist lines as Brexit. "We want independence. What do we gain from it? We don't care because we're bored and need something to rally for!".

But yeah, good for them to "stick it to the man".

Meanwhile Palestine sits there and thinks to itself: "WTF?!"

Catalonian independence is a much older thing than the current wave of populism. The pro-independence Catalonians would probably like to be part of the EU as an independent state if it were possible. 

They are part of the EU right now. What is their fucking problem?



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OTBWY said:

Tanks, Guardia Civil already seen on their way to Catalonia. The entire Catalonian parlement is going to prison. Bye bye independence, bye bye autonomy.

That is incredibly naive. It's also the best way to ensure division in the long term. Why? Because the Spainish government is sticking it's head in the sand and thought the problem woul go away if it ignored it, rather than having a sensible debate - resulting in the current scenario where armed conflict seems inevitable.

The police crackdown on the day of the vote, for example, even disuaded those against the separatist position from the Spainish cause. Force may keep the state together in the short-term but while encourage support for the separatists. Actually allowing the debate would have been the best thing. Take Scotland, they had a vote and a debate aroun it. The idea hasn't gone away but also - no tanks. Attempting to surpress the movement only serves to guarantee its success in the long-term.



vivster said:
sc94597 said:

Catalonian independence is a much older thing than the current wave of populism. The pro-independence Catalonians would probably like to be part of the EU as an independent state if it were possible. 

They are part of the EU right now. What is their fucking problem?

The problem is that they are a very old nation, annexed to Spain, who had to endure some of the most shameful treatment ever given to a people, namely a prohibition of even speaking their language. They are tired of Madrid's bulls**t and lack of respect, and are tired of being bossed around by a government they don't see as their own, and a king which they heartily despise.

 

I can't honestly understand what is the problem about a people choosing to self determine their future...



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