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Forums - Sales Discussion - Can the XB1 take back the US crown?

Yes, as the 360 eventually took #1 from the Wii. I think many people will want to upgrade from their 360's to the Xbox Ones. The just haven't done it yet.

Plus Halo 5 will probably help too. Most of Xbox sales have always happened in the last 4 months of the year.

I think it's just a matter of time.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

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Possible? yes, will it? no.



Arkaign said:
ReimTime said:


To be fair they have been saying this for over 10 years, and a lot of their Windows gaming stuff on PC was absolute shite.


I think there may be a mindshare shift at Microsoft.

Think about what they saw in the 90s, they saw Sony getting into console gaming, and feared that that would eventually challenge the PC/Windows supremacy from the living room outward I guess. At the time Microsoft didn't have a major stake in PC gaming anyway, other than a few minor studios. They saw little chance for growth in PC gaming for whatever reason, and put all their chips on stopping Sony from challenging them from the living room scenario.

Now what has happened since then? Microsoft has been a day late and a dollar short to all of the other challenges to their empire in terms of new tech, such as smartphones, tablets, mobile apps, streaming boxes, and so on. Huge new walled garden environments rose up showering billions into Apple's coffers with the iDevice crazes. Android is growing by literally tens of thousands of new users HOURLY.

All the while PC gaming, under the strong leadership under Steam's interface domination, and the wide availability of decent broadband in the large metro areas, has seen dramatic rises in popularity, reach, and profitability. The global PC numbers for gaming revenue are now simply staggering.

Microsoft sees their error, now an obvious one. Console competition requires truly massive investments for very questionable profits, and is prone to tailspins inevitably at some point in a generation which can only be corrected by spending billions more rolling the dice on a successive generation. It's Russian Roulette for anyone working the console space, even Sony only narrowly avoided suicide by PS3 with the horrendous late launch, high price, availablility issues, low attach rate (few titles + high % of people buying them exclusively to serve as Bluray HT pieces), etc. Now it's Microsoft's turn to feel the pain with XB1.

Let's look at the XB1. Every fan and proponent likes to point at "WOW it's sold more than 360 at this point". This is a deceiving point underneath, because :

1- 360 had massive supply shortages

2- 360 had to build a wider audience from a mostly niche preceding console, the Halo fans were waiting on Halo 3, and Gears didn't exist for a while yet

3- 360 didn't truly take off for a fairly considerable amount of time after launch, it was a slow burn

X1 will inevitably track LTD lower than 360 even in the US, the writing is on the wall. But more crucially :

What do you think the X1 sales would be if they had stuck with $499, no game, mandatory Kinect? They would be totally buried right now. They've thrown everything AND the kitchen sink at X1 to get the sales up. Sales were spectacularly front-loaded on launch, then poor throughout 2014 until the holidays, then considerably buffed by stunning sales. I remember posting a thread positing that we could see a $349 X1 with bundled game(s) in mid-2014, and people thought I was crazy, Microsoft would never do ANOTHER price cut in one year. Well, we all know what happened, multiple game giveaways, $329, retailer gift-cards, trade-up programs, yadda/infinity. So a lot of the numbers we see from X1 so far are due to the pent-up launch demand (which dissipated quickly of course, even with absolutely staggering launch availability), and the 2nd holiday fire sales (against a full-launch-price opponent for all practical purposes).

X1 can compete again holiday 2015 if they have another price advantage. But that's a pretty big question. It would be basically unprecedented for Sony not to drop the price to $349 or less by no later than fall of this year. And more typically we've seen more like a move to $299. At $299, of course Microsoft would have to attack via $249 (in my mind, would result in basically a draw during Nov/Dec), or $199-$229 with big bundles (extra controller, year of live, multiple new games), which would in my estimation result in a similar margin of victory we saw for holiday 2014 favoring MS. But is that worth the cost? Either way is a nightmare scenario for the fundamental function of having a product line to begin with : to make money.

So taking all of that into account, Microsoft can't be run by people stupid enough to not realize where the threats and opportunities lie, and where the failures stand. 

Cliffs for MS :

HUGE money is possible with PC gaming if they can self-check their ego and cooperate with Steam. Simply bringing AAA titles to PC gives enormous sales potential without the ludicrous hardware R&D necessary. They could even offer a W10 'console'-style OS variant that is low overhead that could be packed into to prequalified SteamBoxes from various vendors. All of the rewards, basically none of the risks for MS.

Console hardware is just a low margin nightmare unless you play your cards very tight and make few errors.

As the future comes on, they could go to a Netflix-style high-speed game streaming service for the Xbox brand, play on all of your Windows devices the latest MS games and partner games for a monthly fee. Buy full-fledged games and DLC or MP passes on the side.

And that is my epic rant.

Can the X1 take back the US crown? Not unless they're willing to hemmorhage absolutely stupendous amounts of money for no reason at all. Even 'winning' would amount to a huge loss worldwide. They'd be far better off selling 40M total LTD this gen but turning a profit vs. selling 60M total LTD but losing 4B+ to do so (trying to hit $249 or less only 2 years in with bundled extras).


Holy crap man I wasn't expecting that much of a response haha. Well said! You're right; they definitely were behind the ball on almost every aspect of tech, standing safely behind the monopoly they held on computer software (although I seem to recall them demoing a sort of tablet in 2004, before the Ipad was announced; maybe too early for that time?). I think they played it too safe and neglected branching out, and now everyone else has caught up and surpassed them in other areas of expertise. As for their PC gaming area, I urge everyone to read this post and see the huge oppurtunity they missed with their terrible GFWL software:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=100400267

I'll have to take your word on them placing most of their assets on console development, as I have no expertise on that department. But I know for a fact that they completely screwed up when it came to PC gaming software.

As for the rest of your post; good commentary. It's amazing what a few missteps will do to a company's profits!



#1 Amb-ass-ador

Insidb said:
ReimTime said:


To be fair they have been saying this for over 10 years, and a lot of their Windows gaming stuff on PC was absolute shite.

With the Windows 10 strategy and Hololens on the horizon, they may be close to finally executing. If that is their next move, then they have succeeded in establishing a gaming brand to leverage. It's all speculation, however.

They used to have PC gaming by the balls back when Age of Empires was out, but then they let it slide when they shifted to the Xbox brand. Their reduced focus on PC gaming led to shitty GFWL, and SWOOSH, in comes Steam. It will be interesting to see how Windows 10 and Hololens play into PC Gaming in the future, because I'd argue that Valve is the one who was PC gaming by the balls today.



#1 Amb-ass-ador

ReimTime said:
Insidb said:
ReimTime said:


To be fair they have been saying this for over 10 years, and a lot of their Windows gaming stuff on PC was absolute shite.

With the Windows 10 strategy and Hololens on the horizon, they may be close to finally executing. If that is their next move, then they have succeeded in establishing a gaming brand to leverage. It's all speculation, however.

They used to have PC gaming by the balls back when Age of Empires was out, but then they let it slide when they shifted to the Xbox brand. Their reduced focus on PC gaming led to shitty GFWL, and SWOOSH, in comes Steam. It will be interesting to see how Windows 10 and Hololens play into PC Gaming in the future, because I'd argue that Valve is the one who was PC gaming by the balls today.

I would agree. If MS and Valve can see how much they need each other and build a cooperative landscape moving forward (along with bringing big-budget MS titles to PC), they could both see big revenue and profit increases, while lowering risk.

Valve needs MS, because there would be too much of a gap trying to move off of Windows onto a true Linux-based gaming OS.

MS needs Valve, because there is no substitute for the leading company in PC gaming frontends to be worked around. As you note, GFWL was a disaster. Even if it were totally free from the get-go, it would have been a disaster. MS doesn't need to try to go around Steam, it would only hurt them. They simply need to supply the OS, and have tons of product to sell through Steam (maybe work an insider deal to lower the Valve % cut in exchange for making a low-cost custom 'Xbox' Windows OS lite for Steamboxes).

That said, titanic companies like MS, Sony, Google, Apple DO tend to fall into the greed trap too often, which results in 100% of nothing instead of a big cut of a huge pie shared equitably.



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MS messed up the reveal and concept of Xbox.

Sony won through hype, even though the exclusives suck.

Nintendo is just.. there. Some fun games though.



Arkaign said:
ReimTime said:

They used to have PC gaming by the balls back when Age of Empires was out, but then they let it slide when they shifted to the Xbox brand. Their reduced focus on PC gaming led to shitty GFWL, and SWOOSH, in comes Steam. It will be interesting to see how Windows 10 and Hololens play into PC Gaming in the future, because I'd argue that Valve is the one who was PC gaming by the balls today.

I would agree. If MS and Valve can see how much they need each other and build a cooperative landscape moving forward (along with bringing big-budget MS titles to PC), they could both see big revenue and profit increases, while lowering risk.

Valve needs MS, because there would be too much of a gap trying to move off of Windows onto a true Linux-based gaming OS.

MS needs Valve, because there is no substitute for the leading company in PC gaming frontends to be worked around. As you note, GFWL was a disaster. Even if it were totally free from the get-go, it would have been a disaster. MS doesn't need to try to go around Steam, it would only hurt them. They simply need to supply the OS, and have tons of product to sell through Steam (maybe work an insider deal to lower the Valve % cut in exchange for making a low-cost custom 'Xbox' Windows OS lite for Steamboxes).

That said, titanic companies like MS, Sony, Google, Apple DO tend to fall into the greed trap too often, which results in 100% of nothing instead of a big cut of a huge pie shared equitably.

+1

Some very good ideas! That would be an interesting cooperation: MS and Valve. Steam and MS really are too embedded and in charge of their respective disciplines to be upended. It could be said that many of the crew that build PCs use Linux, but I do know that a lot of them still use Windows (albeit the older versions). The odds of the Steam + MS merger happening however are a little more unclear than I'd like to believe. Like you said big companies like to be greedy, and every company is trying to integrate themselves across as many devices as possible (Valve is building consoles, MS is trying to get into PC again, Nintendo is looking at mobile gaming). Call me crazy, but I think MS would try to buy out Valve before they agreed to a cooperation.



#1 Amb-ass-ador

GribbleGrunger said:
TheGamer95 said:
The Xbox brand still seems to be stronger than the PS brand in the US, i mean the PS4 had better word of mouth in the beginning and the suprior hardware AND it was cheaper and yet it is only outselling the xbox one by a small margin (~600k as of right now). Makes me wonder how the situation would be if the Xone would have been 400$ at launch.

How can you draw that conclusion? 'The XB1 is a stronger brand in the US because the PS4 is only outselling it by a small margin'. That makes absolutely no sense.

Imagine this: Sony would have made all these mistakes with the PS4, making it more expensive than the competition and force-bundling it with the PS-Camera with inferior hardware and with DRM in mind. What do you think would be the gap in the US now? Coming out of the 7th Gen in the US, i am pretty sure the Xbox One would not just outsell the PS4 by a small margin that the PS4 is doing now in this scenario. It would be a blood bath now. Do you get what i'm trying to say?



Shadow1980 said:
Landguy said:

The sales of the PS4 are well ahead of the wildest of speculations.  Even now, it is selling above what anyone would have thought.  They don't need to drop the price to achieve an even higher sell through rate, as the one they have now is excellent. Sony will drop the price of the PS4 this year, but $50 will be sufficaent to keep the sales pace. They will most likely do add ins to add more value to the $350 price.  The XB1 will grow in sales this year, and it will drop in price to do so.  But, it more than likely still won't achieve sales parity with the PS4 Jan-Oct.  Sony dropping the price to get more sales is just bad business.  They will drop the price to keep sales where it is though...

Much of the PS4's near-record LTD sales were due to having the strongest launch of any system ever. But 2014 sales were far from record-breaking. It sold 4.7M in the U.S. last year. Compare that to the PS2, which sold 6.17M in 2001. But you know what? Even though the PS2 was the most dominant console in history it still got a 33%/$100 price cut 19 months after its U.S. launch, and that caused sales to grow by 40%, making it just that much more dominant. I think Sony is well aware of the effects price cuts typically have on sales, and they're well aware that sales will not grow without price cuts, and sales need to grow. The PS4 is doing well, but not well enough. Sales are at best flat from last year in NA and Europe, and they'll stay that way until it gets a price cut. If it doesn't get a price cut this year, it will fall behind the PS2 by a considerable amount. But except for the Wii, no console released in the past 26 years has gone more than two years without a price cut.

I have history on my side. The PS4 will get a price cut this year, and $50 may not be quite enough given the observed effects of price cuts. Based on monthly NPD data that I have going back to the fifth generation, initial price cuts that have provided significant, persistent boosts to sales were all at least 25% reductions or more. The 360 is the only exception, as until recently it was the only system whose initial price cut didn't boost sales significantly, and incidentally it had the smallest initical price cut percentage-wise, declining from $400 to $350 in August '07, a 12.5% reduction. The only other systems released in the past 20 years whose initial price cuts were $50 instead of $100 were Nintendo systems, and they all launched at lower prices than the competition.

Regarding the XBO growing YoY, early signs aren't encouraging. So far it's up only 8% YoY in the U.S. Of course, it's worth pointing out that the XBO had a generally strong Q1 2014, selling 711k units, more than the 603k the 360 sold in Q1 2006, thus giving the XBO one of the best first Q1s of any system in the U.S. this century. A lot of that was likely leftover demand from the launch quarter bleeding over into tax season as well as the limited edition Titanfall bundle. The XBO is now 15 months old (so no left over demand from launch) and there's no major games this quarter for the system, and those are variables that are tough to correct for.

So, the real test will be the spring quarter. XBO sales dropped off a cliff after tax season last year, selling only 115k in April last year. Overall, Q2 2013 sales for the XBO totaled 311k, which is not very good. That's less than what both the GameCube and original Xbox sold in Q2 2002. Sales did rebound after the Kinect-less SKU was introduced, with the XBO pulling 575k units in Q3. If Q2 sales this year for the XBO are up significantly over last Q2, then we can say that the price reductions have had a lasting, non-trivial effect on sales. But if sales are still only barely up, then the XBO's problems may run much deeper than we thought.

As for the XBO getting more price cuts, at most the XBO will decline by another $50 this year, or they may just do more bundles. If the PS4 gets a $100 price cut, the XBO may not be able to win Q4 unless MS drops it by $100 in November. I don't see them doing that. The soonest I see the XBO reaching $250 is November 2016.

Most of what you said I agree with.  THe only difference is that Sony as a company was in a whole different dimension as far a profitability back when the PS2 launched.  They didn't need the games division to turn a ton of profit to keep investors happy.  They were buying up large buildings, not selling them.  THe Sony brasnd meant something in all areas of electronics.  THey also were dominating the US market.  Today, not so much for any of those things.  

So, their ability to do massive price drops to increase sales is less attractive to not only them, but to their investors.  I agree that they will do price drops, to keep sales going and to keep the pressure on Microsoft.  The problem is, they are no longer the giant pushing down on the little guy like they were back then.  THey could drop the price $100 today, and Microsoft would drop the price of the XB1 to match it and do some pack ins to make it even better.  At that point, Microsft would lose some on every console and Sony would too.  What is to be gained by that?  They end up at the sme 55% of the US market as they have now and make no money doing it...



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TheGamer95 said:
GribbleGrunger said:
 

How can you draw that conclusion? 'The XB1 is a stronger brand in the US because the PS4 is only outselling it by a small margin'. That makes absolutely no sense.

Imagine this: Sony would have made all these mistakes with the PS4, making it more expensive than the competition and force-bundling it with the PS-Camera with inferior hardware and with DRM in mind. What do you think would be the gap in the US now? Coming out of the 7th Gen in the US, i am pretty sure the Xbox One would not just outsell the PS4 by a small margin that the PS4 is doing now in this scenario. It would be a blood bath now. Do you get what i'm trying to say?

So that would mean you would say that XB360 would never have outsold the PS3 in the US if it wasn't launched at $600.  But none the less I see what you are saying though. I would say the US is just the STRONGEST territory for the XB1.



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