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Forums - Politics Discussion - SaveJames - Liberal mom forcing her son to act like a girl?

o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Let me ask you a question real quick:

Do you think that the color pink being Feminine is genetic or objective, or do you think that is defined by society?

I don't know, but come on its kind of silly to say that's all societal

lets look at women's behavior for example since I was just talking to a buddy about that

you think women's greater fear of men and statistically higher levels of neuroticism is all because of societal projection? or maybe the biological reality of being smaller than men plays a significant part?

what about their sexual preferences typically for taller and bigger men? might the same biological factors not play a role?

well to me the answer is obvious, there are biological realities at play here not just the patriarchy

those biological factors create behaviors that layer together with our innate impulses and of course our experiences with the outside world

I know its getting popular to just look at the pink blue shit and arrive at the idea that its all a social construct but you aren't really looking at things rationally if that's as deep as you get

You seem to be dodging the question.

And yes, you are right that there are some aspects of maleness and femaleness that are biological. That is why there are two concepts here: Gender (social and culture aspects of maleness and femaleness) and Sex (Biological aspects of maleness and femaleness). I don't see how anyone can deny that these two concepts exist. You may not like the words used to describe them (Gender and Sex) but I don't believe that is something that holds any value in debating (if a core issue is that you don't like the word used, that is not an argument against the concept but instead against language. Take that up with an Etymologist.).



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

I don't know, but come on its kind of silly to say that's all societal

lets look at women's behavior for example since I was just talking to a buddy about that

you think women's greater fear of men and statistically higher levels of neuroticism is all because of societal projection? or maybe the biological reality of being smaller than men plays a significant part?

what about their sexual preferences typically for taller and bigger men? might the same biological factors not play a role?

well to me the answer is obvious, there are biological realities at play here not just the patriarchy

those biological factors create behaviors that layer together with our innate impulses and of course our experiences with the outside world

I know its getting popular to just look at the pink blue shit and arrive at the idea that its all a social construct but you aren't really looking at things rationally if that's as deep as you get

You seem to be dodging the question.

And yes, you are right that there are some aspects of maleness and femaleness that are biological. That is why there are two concepts here: Gender (social and culture aspects of maleness and femaleness) and Sex (Biological aspects of maleness and femaleness). I don't see how anyone can deny that these two concepts exist. You may not like the words used to describe them (Gender and Sex) but I don't believe that is something that holds any value in debating (if a core issue is that you don't like the word used, that is not an argument against the concept but instead against language. Take that up with an Etymologist.).

"You seem to be dodging the question."

"I don't know"

I mean I painted some of my guns in destiny 2 pink because I thought they looked cool, what does that mean?

"I don't see how anyone can deny that these two concepts exist."

I think the silliness arises when people say that sex(biology) and gender(behavior,presentation) are separate, its such a silly thing to say that I sometimes wonder if certain aspects of this ideology are just an elaborate troll, but the punchline never comes and it gets crazier and crazier



o_O.Q said:

I think the silliness arises when people say that sex(biology) and gender(behavior,presentation) are separate, its such a silly thing to say that I sometimes wonder if certain aspects of this ideology are just an elaborate troll, but the punchline never comes and it gets crazier and crazier

You have misunderstood again. Gender is not behavior and presentation. Gender is the social aspects of maleness/femaleness.

Both sex and gender work together to create behavior and presentation. As such, the two concepts are separate but they work together.

This only seems "crazy" because you don't really understand it (evidence by how often you misunderstand or misstate things). Once you actually understand it, you realize how there is absolutely nothing radical or controversial about these concepts. Its basically just saying "Nature and Nurture work together" which has been the basis of psychology for decades.



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

I think the silliness arises when people say that sex(biology) and gender(behavior,presentation) are separate, its such a silly thing to say that I sometimes wonder if certain aspects of this ideology are just an elaborate troll, but the punchline never comes and it gets crazier and crazier

You have misunderstood again. Gender is not behavior and presentation. Gender is the social aspects of maleness/femaleness.

Both sex and gender work together to create behavior and presentation. As such, the two concepts are separate but they work together.

This only seems "crazy" because you don't really understand it (evidence by how often you misunderstand or misstate things). Once you actually understand it, you realize how there is absolutely nothing radical or controversial about these concepts. Its basically just saying "Nature and Nurture work together" which has been the basis of psychology for decades.

"Gender is not behavior and presentation. Gender is the social aspects of maleness/femaleness."

what are you defining maleness and femaleness as in this context, if not as behavior and presentation?

"Both sex and gender work together to create behavior and presentation."

haven't you said previously that sex and gender are separate?

so are you throwing away the idea that a man who identifies as a woman is a woman?

"As such, the two concepts are separate but they work together."

well that's a new one, before you were simply saying that they were separate

"Once you actually understand it"

pretty hard to giving how everything is constantly in flux

"Its basically just saying "Nature and Nurture work together""

but come on be honest man that's not the message here, as I've said the major focus of this ideology is "identity" and a dismissal of the role sex plays



o_O.Q said:
AsGryffynn said:
Allowing kids to be something isn't abuse.

Forcing kids to be something is. End of discussion.

what about indoctrinating kids into ideologies when they are too young to see the flaws in them?

The conondrum seems pretty loaded. Mind sharing some specifics? 



AsGryffynn said:
o_O.Q said:

what about indoctrinating kids into ideologies when they are too young to see the flaws in them?

The conondrum seems pretty loaded. Mind sharing some specifics? 

telling children that sex and gender are separate



o_O.Q said:

"Gender is not behavior and presentation. Gender is the social aspects of maleness/femaleness."

what are you defining maleness and femaleness as in this context, if not as behavior and presentation?

"Both sex and gender work together to create behavior and presentation."

haven't you said previously that sex and gender are separate?

so are you throwing away the idea that a man who identifies as a woman is a woman?

"As such, the two concepts are separate but they work together."

???

well that's a new one, before you were simply saying that they were separate

"Once you actually understand it"

pretty hard to giving how everything is constantly in flux

"Its basically just saying "Nature and Nurture work together""

but come on be honest man that's not the message here, as I've said the major focus of this ideology is "identity" and a dismissal of the role sex plays

"Behavior and presentation" are certainly important components of maleness and femaleness, but remember, we are talking about both the biological and the societal aspects of maleness and femaleness. Neither gender nor sex is all encompassing. It is the sum of the two which produce the full picture of maleness and femaleness.

And yes, gender and sex can be both separate and still work together. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive so I'm not exactly sure where this disbelief is stemming from.

Let me step back and provide an example that is a little less politicized: Food. Everybody loves food, but the food we each like is determined by several different factors. There are biological factors such as taste buds and genetics, for example, to some people cilantro tastes like soap because of their genetics, which affects their taste in food ( https://www.britannica.com/story/why-does-cilantro-taste-like-soap-to-some-people ). However, there are also cultural factors. Different parts of the world considered different foods to be delicacies while others wouldn't eat those same dishes if you paid them too, because of what our society has defined to be normal and good food. You would not say that taste buds and cultural diet differences are the same thing, but you would say they work together to create an individual's taste in food.

This isn't unlike the difference between sex and gender. They are two distinct concepts, however, they do work together to produce the full view of maleness and femaleness. There is nothing in flux here, this is and has all been consistent.

As for whether a transgendered woman is a woman, lets make sure you understand the basic addition first before we move into algebra.

Note: I would like to quickly say that we are mostly talking about overall concepts of maleness and femaleness here, not the application onto the individual. One step at a time.



If you have a Dick you are a boy, If you have a Pussy you are a girl. Its pretty simple really. If you are born with a  dick and have it removed you are still a man but with female genitalia. Same goes for people born as a woman and changing to a man. If you require synthetic hormones to change any part of your appearance, voice etc. than you are the opposite of what those hormones are making you. This liberal push to make people think they are something besides what they are born is literally the loons running the asylum. 



That example is way off the mark. People eat the food in their region, things become a delicacy because they are rare or expensive. It has nothing to do with taste buds. Peoples diets are a product of what foods they have access too plain and simple. Take the food away and replace it with different food from another region and they will generally not like it at first but will learn to enjoy it over time since its all they have. 

The difference here is you are either born a man or a woman, in some cases you are born with both genitalia because of a mutation during development. Some men will be more feminine in nature due to different hormone levels etc. that doesnt make them a women. In order to reproduce which is what is required for a species to survive and evolve it will always require a male and a female which is why people are born either or. If you require synthetic hormones to change what you were born, it doesnt mean that you are now the opposite of what you were. What it does mean is that you have some serious mental issues and want to change into something you are not. Unfortunately we have the ability surgically to alter a lot of this and provide hormones to assist as well.  

The dangerous part here is the perversion of these people trying to mold kids into their sickness, I.E. only provide the food they want them to like and make them believe that even though they were born a boy they can somehow become a girl. Kids are very impressionable. 



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

"Gender is not behavior and presentation. Gender is the social aspects of maleness/femaleness."

what are you defining maleness and femaleness as in this context, if not as behavior and presentation?

"Both sex and gender work together to create behavior and presentation."

haven't you said previously that sex and gender are separate?

so are you throwing away the idea that a man who identifies as a woman is a woman?

"As such, the two concepts are separate but they work together."

???

well that's a new one, before you were simply saying that they were separate

"Once you actually understand it"

pretty hard to giving how everything is constantly in flux

"Its basically just saying "Nature and Nurture work together""

but come on be honest man that's not the message here, as I've said the major focus of this ideology is "identity" and a dismissal of the role sex plays

"Behavior and presentation" are certainly important components of maleness and femaleness, but remember, we are talking about both the biological and the societal aspects of maleness and femaleness. Neither gender nor sex is all encompassing. It is the sum of the two which produce the full picture of maleness and femaleness.

And yes, gender and sex can be both separate and still work together. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive so I'm not exactly sure where this disbelief is stemming from.

Let me step back and provide an example that is a little less politicized: Food. Everybody loves food, but the food we each like is determined by several different factors. There are biological factors such as taste buds and genetics, for example, to some people cilantro tastes like soap because of their genetics, which affects their taste in food ( https://www.britannica.com/story/why-does-cilantro-taste-like-soap-to-some-people ). However, there are also cultural factors. Different parts of the world considered different foods to be delicacies while others wouldn't eat those same dishes if you paid them too, because of what our society has defined to be normal and good food. You would not say that taste buds and cultural diet differences are the same thing, but you would say they work together to create an individual's taste in food.

This isn't unlike the difference between sex and gender. They are two distinct concepts, however, they do work together to produce the full view of maleness and femaleness. There is nothing in flux here, this is and has all been consistent.

As for whether a transgendered woman is a woman, lets make sure you understand the basic addition first before we move into algebra.

Note: I would like to quickly say that we are mostly talking about overall concepts of maleness and femaleness here, not the application onto the individual. One step at a time.

" Neither gender nor sex is all encompassing. It is the sum of the two which produce the full picture of maleness and femaleness."

so i'm going to ask this again but again I expect you to just ignore this question

does this mean therefore that you do not agree with the position that a man becomes a woman once he identifies as one?

"I'm not exactly sure where this disbelief is stemming from."

well because you've made the argument previously that they are not connected and now you've completely flipped on that position

"This isn't unlike the difference between sex and gender. They are two distinct concepts, however, they do work together to produce the full view of maleness and femaleness."

can you provide an example of how sex and gender work together to produce femaleness?

btw did you not say previously that sex is too complicated to be used for distinguishing between men and women?

"As for whether a transgendered woman is a woman, lets make sure you understand the basic addition first"

look, I've understood the concept long before I started talking to you, it just doesn't make sense and you're actually helping to show that

but as I've said I am completely open to being wrong

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 30 August 2019