Well I've been reading allot of these comments and i figured i'd throw my 2 cents in. before i say anything i'd just like to say i have not played through all these games i've only played through GOW:COO and GOW 1 as well as Darksiders HOWEVER i've played in part (and plan to playthrough most :X )all other games in this discussion (bayonetta demo, a bit of DMC4, NGS, and dante's inferno demo)

Although i agree bayonetta has a great combat system i dont think it should become the standard. I think it SHOULD influence other games the way DMC and GOW have but i feel that it shouldnt become the combat system ALL action games use from now on. God of war wouldnt feel right with bayonettas frantic battle system. DMC has its own thing going on and darksiders combat system works well! ninja gaiden also has good things going for it. (dante's inferno actually has very little going for it EXCEPT it has that cool skill tree system)

If every game simply had Bayonetta's then the action/hack n slash genre would lose something and it would become like the FPS genre just another COD clone or halo clone or blah blah blah having less inovation. BECAUSE the hack n slash genre has different fighting styles and combat systems it makes the games great! the beauty is that we get more games that have more veriaty.

So i feel while bayonetta's combat system is good i dont feel it makes it the BEST HOWEVER i feel like its a Perfect example of how the Hack n slash genre continuously EVOLVES. the best part is that games barrow and evolve on others featurs. Darksiders is a perfect example. the critics may judge it for barrowing from other games however it works so well! it has a bit of a lot of games that comes together to evolve to its own style! sure we haves the outliers who dont inovate (heavenly sword i'm looking at you) but overall the hack n slash genre evolves and grows because the combat styles defer!

:D

I think that the stigma about GoW's lack of depth is due to GoW(original games) lack of boss battles or even challenges that require you to use any of the depth available in the combat system.

Jaffe(drunk) praised the DMC combat system.

Someone once tried to argue with me that no action games have particularly deep battle systems. Then I linked them the strat for the Nightmare boss in DMD mode in the original DMC. Beating him is one of my proudest gaming achievements. It requires study, time, and lots of patience. Nothing on any difficulty in any GoW game requires that level of dedication to defeat, and the combo(square square triangle I believe) is the most efficient way to deal damage in that game, on any boss or standard enemy. The game, compared too the super-deep Japanese made competitors in that genre like DMC3 and NG, just isn't comparably deep, and it's actually relatively shallow.

That's just my opinion. I think that if a lot of GoW fans tried to beat DMC on DMD mode, they would understand where I'm coming from.. :P

Remember Tyson on Mike Tyson's Punchout? Think that, with 10 Tyson's all around you, on different timers, with double life, but you also have infinite stars(super punches). Not just difficulty, but the variation of the tools required to challenge that difficulty, is what makes depth. The more you play, the better you get.

A perfect example is Guitar Hero. Expert level Guitar Hero III or Metallica are amazingly difficulty things to accomplish, and they take practice, patience, and skill. DMD mode is just like this, Ninja Gaiden Black is like that. Nothing in GoW is like that. The game only goes so deep with its gameplay, and thus the stigma.

Again, just my opinion.

It's a multiplatform game...

@ckmlb
combat in GOW 3 will be much better than in GOW 1 and 2. dont judge until you played both games

Pfff no way.

Nice post.

I'm confused Why does a game have to be difficult to make it good? i meen SURE its fun to overcome a challange but i dunno to me it seams like a lot of hack n slash players rag on GOW because its not hard enough? for me i feel like if i dont die during a game i dont feel fulfilled like theres no challenge but at the same time if a game slaughters you it can be pretty damn agrevating. but... well its hard for me to say all this because i do enjoy NGS and i'm not saying your wrong but I geuss what i'm trying to say is isnt their room for both? I love me a hard game (demon's soul's i'm looking at you) but at the same time i dont think their's anything wrong with a game not being HAAAARD but just having enough challange to kill you a few times or keep you on your toes during combat. if you dont pay attention in god of war you die and sometimes a new enemy can kill you if you get too confident but just because you dont have nigh impossible odds like DMC on DMD mode it dosent hurt the other game it just makes them different >.> and if you look at my other comment you'll see that i feel like thats what makes the hack n slash genre so great!

Difficulty, if this is a key factor in determining the depth of the various Hack and Slash games, it's no wonder you don't look highly upon God of War.

But that's okay, everyone has their different criteria! Although, I must say that God of War (1, 2) on Titan mode as some very challenging moments that you might enjoy. Moments that force the player to take on different weapons, different combos, and timing. Maybe worth a check?

Also, I'm curious as to why you don't like Jaffe? Just a question.

And where is that Nightmare moment in Bayonetta ?

Granted the game is filled with huge bosses, but none of the boss fights are particulary hard and makes you feel like you accomplished something when you finally killed them... 

I've beaten DMC on DMD, NG on Master Ninja, Bayonetta hardest difficulty does not feel like those at all...

I don't like Jaffe because of a lot of comment's he's made unrelated to his own games, and some of them unrelated to gaming entirely. I don't want to derail the thread by going into them, but since you asked, that's the reason.

I don't think difficulty makes a game good, but I think that for a game to have depth, it has to give you not only the battle system with depth involved, but a reason to delve into the system. The major flaw in GoW1 was the square, square, triangle(It delivers  massive damage very quickly, and also contains an aoe knock down effect, no other combo works as well on 2 or less enemies, and it is amazingly easy to spam) combo is the most efficient way to deal damage through the entire game, and there are few or no situations that give you any reason to not use that combo. In DMC3, for example, each situation is best attacked with a different technique. Believe me when I tell you, the start for nightmare on DMD mode in DMC 1 is longer than some short novels I've read.