@vanatos

You're preaching something to a FF fan since the SNES days, so pretty sure you know that I disagree with all that you posted.

No need to go into defensive mode and calling others fanboys just because you disagree with their opinions. I love the gameplay in FF, it's one of the best executed in all JRPG's.

So from your opinion, you must also despise JRPG's, since random encounters and turn based gameplay is one of the staples for that sub-genre, right?

I want you to give me an example of a Turn-Based JRPG whose normal random encounters can't be won spamming only the same attacks over and over again, but choose carefully and fair.

And I also ask you this, as a closing question, if you dislike Final Fantasy so much, why even bother to come to a FF thread and counter-arguing those who like Final Fantasy? Clearly you knew that would cause trouble.

This is without a doubt, the most insulting post I've ever read...

@ZenfoldorVGI

You're quite right, but I'm trying to keep it as civil as possible, it's clear that his intent is to derail this thread and turn this into a FF bashing argument.

I've seen some of his work in previous threads, and i'm trying to avoid it on this one.

@vanatos

that problem is there in every game

do you enjoy the billionth time you jump in a mario game? or the billionts kill you make in halo? its done in the same way as yor milliont jum/kill, you dnt understand anything man

I don't care who im preaching too, i know im right because of my observation, i have NEVER heard anyone say on forums 'damn that dungeon was fun', purely because of the repetitive nature of the gameplay.

I also know that by virtue of human nature, repetitive actions are boring and unengaging, which Final Fantasy unfortunately encourages.

I don't despise JRPG's, i despise some unfortunate staple mechanics of JRPG's.

Shin Megami Tensei nocturne is for me, the only JRPG turn-based combat i played that was moving in the right direction, it was moving into a truly tactical feel.

It was essentially an elaborate Rock-papers-scissors (you got different attacks each with their different elements physical, curse etc etc),  every enemy,ally and you had a set of things they were immune or even absorb, things they were weak too etc, you could change yours up but not your allies (though you could swap your allies).

Every time someone is hit with something their weak too, they usually get critical damage and their side loses turns.

Playing on hard, you couldnt even afford to stuff up on normal encounters, because you would be wiped out, and you had to really know before-hand what the enemy was like (you could analyze them.

All this added up to a game that was at least, ENGAGING, because you HAD TO pay attention, engagement is at least half of the fun-factor, final fantasy isn't engaging for 99% of the random encounters you go through because you can spam attack, all you had to watch was your health.

Why did i respond to this FF thread? firstly, a thread is not for only praise, secondly, this thread is specifically dealing with criticism of FFXII.

No it isnt actually.

The problem for Final Fantasy is Engagement AND repetition.

The problem For mario, is repetition.

Repetition can partly be aleviated from taking a break from a game, and of course doing things differently, mario suffers less repetition because you have to watch where you are and when to jump so every time you do it, it is a bit different.

Action-games generally have less problems with repetition then turn-based games in this regard.

Final Fantasy is on a whole nother level, because if i save in a dungeon, take a break, come back in, its still going to be the exact same boring encounter where i dont have to pay attention to beat it, and all i do is press x, literally just press x, not even going a bit left and right and watching my enemy or something like that to engage me.

@vanatos

It's funny that you picked SMT: Nocturne as an example. If you had picked Persona 3 I would be inclined to agree with you, but SMT:Nocturne was far from hard, even on the highest difficulty. It all boiled down to how much patience you had in grinding enough to get so much power that everything became repetitive after a while.

That's repetition isn't bad at all, it's part of the process of getting the most out of any JRPG game, in which inevitably, you'll end up doing the same thing over and over again.

Also, you may not be in this forum long enough, or haven't visited previous FF threads, because I have already posted with members in here about some dungeons or locations that I'm particulary fond in any FF game, want me to give you a list of them?

- Henne Mines and Giruvegnan in FFXII
- Omega Ruins in FFX
- Deep Underwater Station in FFVIII
- Ancient Forest in FFVII
- Kefka's Tower in FFVI

Shall I continue? I think that you get the point. You may not have heard that argument before, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you're making too many leaps of judgment ;)

Also, you don't have to give any praise or love whatsoever to a FF game in a FF thread, but you came out with an outright bashing to FF, which is beyond criticism, and that was trully unnecessary.

-If you state that 'grinding power' was necessary, then thats implicit admittance that it is hard, when players grind levels to overpower the enemy completely, that means that they could not do so normally.

Grinding essentially means 'doing boring shit to get alot of power to make something hard, easy'.

- Grinding is a bad repetition, i cannot believe your stating grinding is not bad, grinding IS a bad game design, because it is unenjoyable, any MMO player can outright tell you that grinding is terrible

- Yeh you go give me these threads where you talked about these dungeons, ill read them, ill even look for them

- bashing? where i detailed explicitly the mechanics of turn-based game and how final fantasy doesnt achieve this?

Its obvious you believe criticism IS bashing, and you dont accept it, the fact that you somehow dissaprove of me talking negatively about FFXII and in general the staple mechanics of FF (random encounters, general non-tactical combat etc), in a thread about the flaws in FFXII, shows me your actually a fanboy out to defend it rather then looking at it objectively.

@vanatos

Your definition of grinding differs a lot from mine. I grind in every RPG game that I play, it's an habit that I got since the days of Ultima for the PC. I have lost the count to the amount of hours that I grinded for Runes in Diablo 2 xD

Oh and now I tell you this, you go ahead and ask any Diablo 2 fan how fun it is to grind for loot in Diablo 2 ;)

Grinding is not bad repetition if you enjoy it, which clearly you do not, but that doesn't give you the right to extrapolate your thoughts and feelings to everyone else, that's pretty selfish of you ;)

I won't give you those threads, because i'm not going to dwelve on thousands of posts and a year of posting in this forum, just to satisfy your curiosity, I have more things to do, and if you really want to see them, look for yourself :)

You don't consider this bashing then?:

-"gameplay in FF critically appraised?! ROFL, so through FF1-FF6, was it a great gameplay experience to go through the 99th random encounter in which you spammed the exact same attack? ditto for FF7, FF8, FF9, FF10 etc etc?"

-"Do you know what is praised? all the time? design external from the gameplay and purpose, gameplay has only one overall purpose, excitement, it doesnt matter how intricate, complex gameplay it is, if it in the end isn't exciting, its crap, Final Fantasy can employ the most complex intricate and damn genius design ever, but if it aint exciting, its crap."

-"I don't like to say it, but anyone who argues that gameplay in Final Fantasy was some kind of praise-worthy thing, is obviously a fanboy, it has never been good, because it has never been exciting apart from boss battles, i only make an exception to Final Fantasy 1 and 2 since it was new then"

Because if your idea of criticism is calling things crap and calling fans of that thing fanboys, then you sir have a very skewed idea of criticism ;)

Umm i played Diablo 2 for a long time, using the assassin class, and yes i know what grinding is like in that game, grinding isnt fun rofl.

Grinding in Diablo 2 , is pretty much the same as grinding in any MMO today (fighting specific enemies for randomized and low chance of item drops) and it is pretty much agreed and fact that this is not fun.

It is not human nature to enjoy the same repetition again and again, there is a reason why grinding has a large negative connotation to it, go and read any business book on management, and you'll see how 'grinding' (or repetitive work) is not fun, the only good thing about it is you can become specialised (very good) at it, after doing it so many damn times, which is why it advocates either rotation of duties or increase in responsibilities for employees.

-Criticism, is stating something is bad with rationale reasons, if i state 'FFXIII sucks' and thats it, that is bashing, but i stated my reasons quite clearly, so you obviously conflate criticism with bashing.

Even your quoting me shows that i clearly outlined my reasons.

I dont mind calling you a fanboy considering you explicitly stated me criticising a game in a thread about criticism of said game is somehow wrong and i should leave the thread, is this not a clear sign you only tolerate praise for FFXIII? isn't that really what a fanboy is?

The fact is, the gameplay in all Final Fantasy has been bad because of the way its designed (as ive outlined), it promotes repetition and lack of engagement (mainly the easy repetitive normal random encounters), if you make a game even MORE linear, with no towns etc, you are promoting it even further, without any distraction that can alleviate that.