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Forums - Gaming - BioWare: JRPGs suffer from 'lack of evolution'

jonnhytesta said:
first i a agree, but wrpgs suck balls too. "wrpgs are popular, that means we are amazing" cocky bastard
wrpgs cliches:
souless world with a souless main character.
macho marine
american empire(apocaliptic, conquering the space , conquering infirior species,etc)
star trek or toliken crap.
o yes and killing and killing inocent people for no good reason, crappy story and 1000 empty endings

And we can go down the JRPG route by saying THIS is why they are awesome: Their linear story and leveling up allow for the argument that any linearly driven plot game with stat-building is an RPG.  Thanks to JRPGs, we can argue that "God of War" is also an RPG.  Thus JRPGs enable any game short of Tetris to be considered an RPG.  Of course, of Tetris had a linear plot and enable you to gain new powers, it would be an RPG to.  Thank you JRPGs for broadening the RPG genre so much!

Beyond this, one has to say that all videogame RPGs are mere shadow emulations of pen and paper RPG systems, and offer a shadow of freedom to ROLE PLAY, and the system act as a restrictive RPG.



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it may be the same experience over and over, but thats why i love 'em. :P
and btw, the story's different every game, as is the Battle System. (if just slightly, but it is.)

he means that you have no choice but to follow the storyline, but thats the same in Bioware Games. (except ME2, where you're hero can die or live. but lets keep things simple, this means simply that there is an alternative ending, and there were 3 endings in X-2). you can say: 'okay, i'll help the elves and kill the wolves!' or you say 'i'll help the wolves and kill the elves!' .. but in the end you still have to stop the Blight in Dragon Age, and no matter what you did back in the forest, the only change is the kind of army you have later. (Elves or Wolves).

and btw, there were alternative options to finish things even in Gothic 1, released 8 (?) Years Ago. So.. is it really evolution to give gamers 5 instead of 3 talking options, where option 4 and 5 are the same as 1 and 2?

No.



I'm a Foreigner, and as such, i am grateful for everyone pointing out any mistakes in my english posted above - only this way i'll be able to improve. thank you!

richardhutnik said:
jonnhytesta said:
first i a agree, but wrpgs suck balls too. "wrpgs are popular, that means we are amazing" cocky bastard
wrpgs cliches:
souless world with a souless main character.
macho marine
american empire(apocaliptic, conquering the space , conquering infirior species,etc)
star trek or toliken crap.
o yes and killing and killing inocent people for no good reason, crappy story and 1000 empty endings

And we can go down the JRPG route by saying THIS is why they are awesome: Their linear story and leveling up allow for the argument that any linearly driven plot game with stat-building is an RPG.  Thanks to JRPGs, we can argue that "God of War" is also an RPG.  Thus JRPGs enable any game short of Tetris to be considered an RPG.  Of course, of Tetris had a linear plot and enable you to gain new powers, it would be an RPG to.  Thank you JRPGs for broadening the RPG genre so much!

Beyond this, one has to say that all videogame RPGs are mere shadow emulations of pen and paper RPG systems, and offer a shadow of freedom to ROLE PLAY, and the system act as a restrictive RPG.

If you want to be like that, than almost every game is an RPG.  In almost every game, you play as a character in the game, in other words, you play a role.  Just like almost every game can be an adventure/puzzle/action game.  




 

r505Matt said:
vlad321 said:
--OkeyDokey-- said:
Wow, this coming from Bioware who've been using the exact same template across mutliple IP's since KOTOR.

Jade Empire = KOTOR - Star Wars + Asia
Mass Effect = KOTOR - Star Wars
Dragon Age = KOTOR - Star Wars + Baldur's Gate

JRPGs have evolved plenty. Persona 3 and 4, The World Ends With You, Final Fantasy XII, Valkyria Chronicles and as he mentioned, Demon's Souls are all very innovative recent JRPGs.

Dragon Quest and Pokemon are guilty of staying the same, but they're more popular than ever so I don't see how they can be blamed for the decline.

I think you have all your math mixed up....

 

KOTOR = NWN - Depth + Starwars

 

Your revised math:

JE = NWN + Asia - dpeth

ME = NWN - depth

DA = NWN - depth = Baldur's gate.

Well, depends on what kind of depth you're talking about. JRPGs have deep, but predictable and rehashed stories. Bioware games have depth in choice that let you actually control the outcome (which is part of what a real RPG is to me). For a long time, with FF and CT and SMRpg and other great, fun RPGs, I didn't consider them real RPGs since you don't role-play anything, you just follow the path. Some games these days offer real choices, and that's the beginning of true RPGs coming to video games. It surely isn't an easy thing to do.

The easy thing to do is to make a story and force players on a path to follow that story. That doesn't take much ingenuity. All you need is a good story to grip the players, but the way of presenting that story is cake. It's like you only have to do half the work with that formula.

That said, there are good JRPGs and good WRPG; and, there are bad JRPGs and bad WRPGs. To me, it's more about quality of the product than it being about whether one is innovative or not. Innovation isn't everything, I just want to have fun.

The problem is that you can choose the absolute best JRPG story, and ti will fall short of ANY mediocre book, never mind the great ones. Games have never been about linear stories since they are ALWAYS shitty compared to stories on other media. Gameplay and a changing storyline or extremely deep immersion are the aces of video games as a medium, both things which JRPGs lack heavily.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

@Vlad: What constitutes a good story is completely subjective.

I thought the story of Chrono Trigger was amazing. Also thought the story of Super Metroid and Shadow of The Colossus were extremely immersive and moving.

All of those had relatively simple narrative. SotC nd Super Metroid had almost no dialogue or text at all. Chrono Trigger is one giant cliche fest. And also, they were all completely linear (save for CT, but then again... not so much). Yet they all managed to move me somehow.

Although I know how those games made me feel when I played them, I also know what I feel doesn't come from the game, but from me. I'm the one who thinks those things. It's an opinion.

You don't get to say what you like is somehow superior to what I like. It's not.



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Qual é, Dadinho...?

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JRPG are repeating themselves and need to innovate. I used to love the genre, they were amazing as a teenager with a PS1. I could buy one for under £20 and the games would last me AGES, which for someone with little to no money, was awesome.

Nowadays they're the exact same thing, and it even feels like alot of them draw more from the cliches then before as if that's kind of what is expected. I think the developers in the east are kind of realising this now, but getting anyone to back a JRPG which defies convention is a difficult task - I think Resonance of Fate looks like it's trying to break the cliché mold somewhat though (Surprise Surprise that Square Enix avoided it).

I do really enjoy WRPG's too but they're all feeling pretty similiar nowadays too. I've probably not played enough of the genre to be it's most reputable critic but what they boast as multiple web dialogue tends to be a question of "Are you a ****head?". When I first played WRPG's (After growing up on the JRPG) they were incredibly fresh and new and innovative, nowadays I don't get that feeling from any WRPG, it again feels like a been here done that.



Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

...not really.  The 'Golden Age' of PC RPGs WAS back in the 1980s and early 90s.  Sales were smaller back then because there were less gamers.  But PC was still dominant over consoles.  In comparison, games like Ultima and Wizardry did very well for their time.  And I don't know how you can say they 'didn't take off' considering they are considered the originators of video game RPGs (and did spawn a number of successful successors such as Dungeon Master.

But the late 90s, Consoles were overtaking PC.  And WRPGs were being overtaken by Console RPGs.  Its only been recently that WRPGs have made a comeback, and only with the help of joint releases on consoles.

The problem with this is that I was around and a PC gamer during those years.  I played a lot of the early PC games ranging from King's Quest series to games that no one has ever heard of like Tangle.  PC gaming as a whole really was subpar until around the time Commander Keen came out.  It was about then that a lot of good and memorable PC titles started being released (vga Trek, Tank Wars, etc).  Before then there wasn't really a golden age of anything except maybe MUDs.

In the late 90s, consoles weren't gaining ground against PCs.  Half-life and Starcraft had just been released, it was years until the PS2 would appear, and the most widely known of console RPGs, Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 8, were on the PC as well as the Playstation.  During that time Bioware was releasing Baldur's Gate and Black Isle was releasing Fallout.  It was one hell of a good time to be a PC gamer.

Look, if you're going to paraphrase wikipedia and think you understand what it was like to be a PC gamer during those years then go away because debating with you isn't worth my time.

I can claim similar thing towards you, who keeps bringing up games that aren't RPGs (what does Starcraft and Half-Life have to do with anything?).  Me bringing up LucasArts SCUMM games and early SIM games isn't going to prove my case for early RPGs on the PC.  In any event, I was playing both PC and console games in the 80s and 90s.  And its a proven fact that in the 80s or early 90s, not only were PC games more popular, but there were periods when entire genres (including RPGs) where only found on PC or only popular on PC.

A few games like Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy might be heralded as legendary today, but there was an entire ERA (span of over 15 years) where RPGs were dominant on the PC.  From Text based adventures to games like Ultima and Wizardry to games like The Bards Tale, Wasteland and etc.

Trust me, I fully admit good games came later.  That's what happens, games improve.  But the 'Golden Age' was not in 1998 and after for PC games or WRPGs.  If anything, PC games as a whole lost dominance in innovation and sales following the early 90s to consoles.  Even in recent years, all the best PC RPGs have had to make ports to consoles to cover their production costs or to compete with console RPGs.  INCLUDING Bioware games like Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, which all sold better on consoles.

Starcraft and Half-life are plenty relevant if you're going to say in your post that consoles were overtaking the PC.  I thought you were making a general statement across the board but maybe I misread that though.

And being the only game in town doesn't mean they were dominant of anything.  It's like running a race by yourself.  You may be the winner but there's nothing really to win and if it takes you 2 hours to do the 100 meter dash then you're still awful despite being the winner.  That's why Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior were so amazing.  They were simply better than everything that came before. 

In my opinion, the PC obviously had the edge before consoles had RPGs.  Once those arrived, they blew away pretty much all the PC RPGs through the NES and SNES eras.  The Playstation era is when Bioware/Black Isle were on the scene and pretty much destroyed console RPGs in terms of quality.  S-E putting their games on the PC only helped.  The PS2 was a turning point back in favor of consoles and Black Isle getting killed only cemented that.

Also, Morrowind is not a Bioware game.  I know that was a typo, but that's a really insulting typo to Bioware.  Also, KotOR and JE started the trend of Bioware RPGs on Microsoft systems because Microsoft oftered them $$$ and Vivendi had taken over by then.



Johann said:
@Vlad: What constitutes a good story is completely subjective.

I thought the story of Chrono Trigger was amazing. Also thought the story of Super Metroid and Shadow of The Colossus were extremely immersive and moving.

All of those had relatively simple narrative. SotC nd Super Metroid had almost no dialogue or text at all. Chrono Trigger is one giant cliche fest. And also, they were all completely linear (save for CT, but then again... not so much). Yet they all managed to move me somehow.

Although I know how those games made me feel when I played them, I also know what I feel doesn't come from the game, but from me. I'm the one who thinks those things. It's an opinion.

You don't get to say what you like is somehow superior to what I like. It's not.

No don't get me wrong. As far as games go the ones you listed were amazing. However as far as stories across all media, they pale in comparison to a good book. If you think otherwise maybe you just need to read more and better books....



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Senlis said:
richardhutnik said:
jonnhytesta said:
first i a agree, but wrpgs suck balls too. "wrpgs are popular, that means we are amazing" cocky bastard
wrpgs cliches:
souless world with a souless main character.
macho marine
american empire(apocaliptic, conquering the space , conquering infirior species,etc)
star trek or toliken crap.
o yes and killing and killing inocent people for no good reason, crappy story and 1000 empty endings

And we can go down the JRPG route by saying THIS is why they are awesome: Their linear story and leveling up allow for the argument that any linearly driven plot game with stat-building is an RPG.  Thanks to JRPGs, we can argue that "God of War" is also an RPG.  Thus JRPGs enable any game short of Tetris to be considered an RPG.  Of course, of Tetris had a linear plot and enable you to gain new powers, it would be an RPG to.  Thank you JRPGs for broadening the RPG genre so much!

Beyond this, one has to say that all videogame RPGs are mere shadow emulations of pen and paper RPG systems, and offer a shadow of freedom to ROLE PLAY, and the system act as a restrictive RPG.

If you want to be like that, than almost every game is an RPG.  In almost every game, you play as a character in the game, in other words, you play a role.  Just like almost every game can be an adventure/puzzle/action game.  

In a certain sense, videogames offer more of a role-playing experience than pen and paper RPGs.  Videogames force people to play through the eyes of someone else and become then.  However, using D&D as the benchmark of what an RPG is (pen and paper), JRPGs tend to be very linear in how you play them, and have set characters in a party you order around.  It is sort of hand-holding storytelling meets a simulation of paper RPGs, right down to players commanding a party.



jammy2211 said:
JRPG are repeating themselves and need to innovate. I used to love the genre, they were amazing as a teenager with a PS1. I could buy one for under £20 and the games would last me AGES, which for someone with little to no money, was awesome.

Nowadays they're the exact same thing, and it even feels like alot of them draw more from the cliches then before as if that's kind of what is expected. I think the developers in the east are kind of realising this now, but getting anyone to back a JRPG which defies convention is a difficult task - I think Resonance of Fate looks like it's trying to break the cliché mold somewhat though (Surprise Surprise that Square Enix avoided it).

I do really enjoy WRPG's too but they're all feeling pretty similiar nowadays too. I've probably not played enough of the genre to be it's most reputable critic but what they boast as multiple web dialogue tends to be a question of "Are you a ****head?". When I first played WRPG's (After growing up on the JRPG) they were incredibly fresh and new and innovative, nowadays I don't get that feeling from any WRPG, it again feels like a been here done that.

What we know as "western RPGs" is mostly stuff by Bethesda and Bioware.  So, what you are likely running across is similar styles when you go from one Bethesda game to another, or one Bioware to another.  I am speaking in terms of console WRPGs.  Beyond that, they tend to treat Tolkin as gospel, and reference them a lot.