Renting doesn't count because if it's a legal business they have to pay royalties.

However the other 3 are equal in the effects towards the developers and publishers.

It's just that Second hand and lending is ajust a smaller scale pirating, and it's actually worse when it come to money.

Guy who pirates then sells game = guy who sells second hand <---- worst type of offeders, they MAKE money from other's work

Guy who gets game pirated = guys who buy game used = guys who lends it/gets it lended <---- not as bad, your standard pirate/used buyer

People who sell second hand please step off your throne, you are far worse than your average pirate.

1. I'm just asking why it's fair that your money goes further than mine that is worth absolutely the same.  You get 2 games, I get the 1.  Looking at that, I can just say oh, now I can only afford 1 game a month so I can pirate the rest and hey, I wouldn't be lying if I suddenly spent that extra $60 on something else.
2. Agreed?  That still doesn't justify stealing a game though...
3. Looks like you'll just have to base your games on value then and rank them.  And if a game doesn't last you that long, what's to stop you from renting it since that's only a fraction of what buying it would be?  Maybe you just shouldn't blow through games so quickly or maybe read a book every now and then?
4. So you're just saying it's best to sweep problems under the rug then and ignore them?  Or is it alright right now that some people pirate games because they say they can't afford them but if everyone suddenly got clued in on the secret that just saying you can't afford them then it would become bad?

Your logic is full of double standards and contradictions and it's just ridiculous that you're still trying to defend it.  Maybe if I write out your beliefs you'll see how stupid they sound?

• You can steal as long as everyone else doesn't do it.
• It's fine that you don't have to pay for every game because you're supporting some developers and some is better than none.
• Screw self control, by pirating a game you're actually keeping yourself form financial difficulty!
• I can't decide or wait for certain games so I might as well get them all now.

Just a quick math to show that second hand is morally wworse than pirating:

Pirating:
1 guy pay $50 and then a bunch of other get it for free. Developers/publishers see $50 only.

Second Hand:
1 guy pays $50 and then sells it along. Developer/publisher gets only $50 while each person who owns the game MAKES money off of their idea.

End result:

Second hand people are more greedy and immoral than pirates.

Are you saying that it is ok to steal something if you can't justify paying for it, and the victim is a content provider?  There is a real cost to stealing, even if it is something as easy to steal as intellectual property.  Just because you can do it without getting caught, doesn't make it any less of a crime.  You can't justify this behavior simply because you don't feel like the content is worth the sales price, or you don't have enough money to legitimately purchase it.

So are you saying we should al pirate more games to help the game developers and pour scorn on all those that trde in their games or buy pre-owned games?

I can't find any fault with this arguement :0P

It's a little offensive that you think I'm just given everything like some spoiled teenager but I wouldn't ban you for something like that.

I had a lengthy response typed up but rather than go completely off topic, I'll just say I happen to work pretty hard for everything I have, I'm not ungrateful for it, and I've gone through periods where I can't afford shit and have had to miss out.

The first thing we have to address here is the matter of language, and Twesterm, you do need to pay attention to this part if you want to either (a) contribute to the discussion, or (b) convince people of your stance.

In this context, we cannot take "steal" to be equivalent with "piracy" - the language is unnecessarily divisive, and we have the two different words because they have two different meanings in this specific context. If we don't acknowledge this point, then we're not going to get anywhere.

In this context, I propose that we define theft and piracy as follows:

Theft (or "stealing"): To deprive a producer or distributor of a piece or quantity of goods which affects the amount of money that they will take in by removing goods that they produced. Always, always, ALWAYS costs the producer money, or at the least costs the distributor money. This hurts somebody, somewhere.

Piracy: To obtain a copy of a piece of software (intellectual property rather than physical property) without paying for it. May affect the bottom line or may not depending on the situation of the person doing the pirating, and whether or not they have the ability to purchase a piece of IP legally (keep in mind this has nothing to do with the will to do so).

Now, we have to agree on these points. There can be no arguing here: these words are different, have their own specific meanings, and in this context cannot be used interchangeably. If you're not willing to concede this point on either side of the discussion, you might as well pack up your bags and go.

Now, given that this is the case, we need to establish what each person is arguing. Tell me if I've got this right:

Twesterm is arguing that it is wrong to experience things for which one has not paid, regardless of whether or not it affects the monetary income of the producer or distributor. From this, it is also immoral to pirate SNES, NES, or region-specific games, because playing games without paying for them is intrinsically immoral.

Scottie is arguing that it is all right to experience things for which one has not paid in a case where it does not prevent one from giving what one can to the producers, i.e. it's okay to pirate one game and buy one game if one cannot afford to buy 2. From this, the situation which Johann has described, where an entire country pirates because games are priced at a level that is prohibitive to GDP per capita, is moral.

Is that the size of these arguments?

Sumarised mine quite nicely

@dbot:
Stealing what? They didn't lose anything. It's a copy. Stealing something means the other person doesn't have it anymore. That's stealing.

Let's be practical here. The only reason people hate piracy so much is because of one thing and one thing only. Not because it hurts the developer (like where I live, where can assure you he'd never see the money anyway). Not because it's illegal. No, it's much more simple than that.

It's because of fairness. It's simply not fair that you have to pay for something and a pirate doesn't, right? That's what this is all about, isn't it? You have to give up a part of your paycheck, and the pirate gets it for free. Not cool.

I actually can agree with that last one. I don't think piracy is right. There, I said it. It's not stealing, but certainly not right. But I have no fucking choice and as long as games are priced at the range they are priced here, I will pirate them. Better do that than give money to someone who sells pirated games. Those are the real criminals.

That's very true. If people see second hand better than piracy then that really confirms what you are saying.