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Forums - Sales Discussion - Which is moraly (not legaly) worse? Secondhand _ Pirating _ Renting_Lending

Khuutra said:
twesterm said:

OK, so lets say this.  Let us assume that if you budgeted for one game every two months but there are two games you want now.  Since you can only afford one game, as absurd as it is, it's victomless crime to pirate that second and not just wait until next month.

So now lets assume that I budgeted two games every two months and I want the same two games.  I have budgeted for two games so I buy the two games.

Since you're assuming that situation is perfectly acceptable that brings about several questions besides the fact you think stealing is alright:

  1. Why is my money worth less than yours?
  2. If an unexpected expense comes up that makes it so I can only afford one game this two month period, can I pirate the other game?
  3. Is gaming a necessity?  Why is it alright to steal a game if I can't afford it?

Please answer those three questions.

Consumer goods are consumer goods, there's no line drawn between "necessities" and "luxuries" most of the time - that is, if you've read your Marx.

So you're saying Marx would pirate a game if he wanted one and couldn't afford it right away?



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I also find some of the language used here to be troubling, moreso because it isn't being challenged.

I'll write about that when I get back from the post office.



twesterm said:
Khuutra said:

Consumer goods are consumer goods, there's no line drawn between "necessities" and "luxuries" most of the time - that is, if you've read your Marx.

So you're saying Marx would pirate a game if he wanted one and couldn't afford it?

I don't think Marx would have given a shit to be honest with you.

But no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that people will buy what people will buy, regardless of whether or not they need it. There is no "need" in consumer buying patterns, rather.



Khuutra said:
twesterm said:
Khuutra said:

Consumer goods are consumer goods, there's no line drawn between "necessities" and "luxuries" most of the time - that is, if you've read your Marx.

So you're saying Marx would pirate a game if he wanted one and couldn't afford it?

I don't think Marx would have given a shit to be honest with you.

But no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that people will buy what people will buy, regardless of whether or not they need it. There is no "need" in consumer buying patterns, rather.

Yeah, but I only bring up the necessity part because you can argue the I steal bread to feed my family that is about to starve to death but it's a little harder to argue I steal a game because I'm bored.



1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index - Your money is worth a lot more than 99% of the world's population[edit]'s money[/edit].

2) Yes, but if there is an unexpected windfall sometime later then you should buy 1 more game than you were planning to, regardless of wether you pirate or not. (and don't say that there may not be a 3rd game you want, I am only talking about people who can't afford anywhere near the number of games they want)

3) Course it's not a necessity, and I believe it's alright because it doesn't hurt anyone, as long as you still buy as many games as you can



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twesterm said:
scottie said:
So seecee

You recognise that pirating can be done in such a way that does not harm anyone, and yet you still oppose it purely because it's not right. Whilst I have to admire your stance, it seems a bit pointless

twesterm, you're just being silly now "actively trying to destroy the industry." Think about that. Why would a pirate want the industry to collapse? Even if you are going to attempt to claim that piracy will/could destroy the industry, don't for a second claim that that is the aim of pirates.

What else would they be doing by stealing games?  They know they're stealing so they know they're destroying everything people have put years of blood, sweat, and tears into because they can't be bothered to pay for it.

Just read the article I linked to above-- pirates try all sorts of things to lie themselves why they're stealing games but in the end they are just cheap, greedy, selfish little fucks.

Of course you'd say that. You can afford games. Maybe if money was any kind of problem to you you'd at least try to see things differently.

I looked up the minimum wage in the United States. It is 7,25 dollars an hour. If you work 8 hours a day, that's about 1200 USD a month. That's about 2000 reais. Minimum wage here is 465 reias. That's about 224 dollars. Per month. I don't even wanna calculate how much that is per hour.

So yeah, maybe if you were making 224 dollars a month you'd not be so be so eager to cough up 50 or 60 bucks on a game. And you'd never find a game for 50 or 60 bucks here. Retail price of most games here is about 220 reais (about 130 USD).

A game costs about 4% of the minimum wage in the USA. It's about 50% here. If games costed 4% of the minimum wage here, they would cost about 20 reais. If games costed that much here, people would gladly pay for it. I know this because that's for how much pirates usually sell their games here.

Would you buy a game for 600 dollars? Would anyone?

 



Quem disse que a boca é tua?

Qual é, Dadinho...?

Dadinho é o caralho! Meu nome agora é Zé Pequeno!

scottie said:
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index - Your money is worth a lot more than 99% of the world's population.

2) Yes, but if there is an unexpected windfall sometime later then you should buy 1 more game than you were planning to, regardless of wether you pirate or not. (and don't say that there may not be a 3rd game you want, I am only talking about people who can't afford anywhere near the number of games they want)

3) Course it's not a necessity, and I believe it's alright because it doesn't hurt anyone, as long as you still buy as many games as you can
  1. You didn't answer my question, you just linked to something else I didn't ask about.  Again, assuming we're both from the same country, city, neighborhood, why do you get to pay $60 for two games and I get to pay $120 for the same two games?
  2. So what if I dont' get a sudden amount of money and I can't buy that extra game?  Should I just buy one less game the next month?  If that's the case, why can't you just get one less game instead of pirating one and buying one?
  3. You missed my #3 edit-- I have a bad habit of ninja-editing things.
  4. And you are absolutely wrong in that it does hurt people.  Like I said, if you pirate a game you obviously want it for some reason.  Every other person has to get the demo (which shows the developer people at least want to try the game), rent it (which gives money to the people licensing the game) or buy it (which gives money to the people developing it).  Why are you so special that you get it for free?  If everyone lied to themselves and just said well I wasn't going to buy it anyways or I'm not actually stealing anything then there would not be a games industry.  Even if you pirate one and buy one, if everyone had that attitude the industry could not sustain itself.

As for Johann, it sucks that they're that expensive but in that case then you just don't buy until it's a price you can afford.  If enough people don't buy then the price will come down.  I don't know why they're so much more expensive where you come from and I absolutely agree that it sucks, but markup isn't a reason to steal.



1) I pointed out that your question was not worth answering. Your money is never going to be worth the same as other peoples, so why complain about it? Besides, someone pirating games means that they get more for their money, but it doesn't mean you get less for yours.

2) If in the long run you are finding yourself in financial difficulty more often than you are finding yourself with excess money, then you are spending too much. Cut back on something.

3) indeed I did. If there are 2 games I want in January I can buy 1 and then finish it and be bored for half a mont, and buy the next in Febuary. But then I have to buy the 2 games I wanted from Febuary's release schedule in march and April, then I buy March's games in May and June, Aprils in July August etc. Doesn't sound great.

4) I've covered this so many times. Obviously, if the person actually doesn't still buy as many games as they otherwise would have then it is harming someone. But many people don't, because they have morals

As for your advice to Johann - that is not how the economy works. If everyone stops buying games for a while, the price of games rises. If people stop buying from retailers, then the retailers lay off employees, who then don't buy stuff and then that means other employees need to be fired. The actual way to get the price of games reduced requires vast government investment in local export businesses, then careful balancing of imports and exports, as well as long term political stability and shrewd managing of the economy by the government in order to increase the value of the currency.



I've noticed that many people attack others that buy used games, because their money is not contributing anything to the game developer. 

I'm just wondering, why is no blame put on those that sell the games? If I buy Muramasa for $50, and sell it 2 weeks later for $30 (to someone who then keeps it), who contributed more to the developer?



@twesterm:
The games are more expensive here because of importing taxes, mostly.
The price does goes down. When the game is 2 or 3 years old, the price does become slightly affordable, but still ridiculously expensive and way too much for a game.

I don't expect you to understand. You own all the 3 major consoles and the DS so I'm guessing you're not exactly living on food stamps. It's easy saying that you could do without this stuff when you never had to do it yourself.

PS.: I apologize if that last part offends you, but it's just how I feel. Please don't ban me



Quem disse que a boca é tua?

Qual é, Dadinho...?

Dadinho é o caralho! Meu nome agora é Zé Pequeno!