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Forums - Sales - Which is moraly (not legaly) worse? Secondhand _ Pirating _ Renting_Lending

Hephaestos said:

3) The store doesn't do used games and Kids are against copyright infridgement.
_ Developper makes 0$.
_ no one can play the game (not enough money), kids buy candy instead and get fat.

4) The kids are NOT against copyright infridgement, so they download it.

-Developer makes 0$ 

-Every kid can enjoy the game, and have 20$ to keep.

 

 

 

LegendofBooboo2 comes out.... and they all had enough time to collect $60 each, while they still remember thatLegendofBooboo 1 was a great game.

which scenario has the developper make more profit??



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Kantor said:

From worst to least bad:

Piracy. The developer gets the money from ONE sale, and hundreds of thousands of people get the game for free. People the pirate doesn't know.

Second Hand. A different company is profiting from the game that the developer has made, but they only have as many copies as people were willing to return.

Lending. This isn't really that bad, it's just letting a friend play your game. But they are playing and finishing it without giving any money to the developer.

Renting. This is at the bottom because rental services have to pay extra money for the game and a license, so that makes up for it.

EDIT: I would say, of those, only pirating is immoral. Buying used is slightly immoral, but if one person doesn't want the game any more, why shouldn't someone else get it? It's lending, but somebody makes a profit out of it. The other two are absolutely fine. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the last three, and I don't do the first any more.

whainaut?

it's fun, especially if games arent worth buying



ironman said:
vlad321 said:
Zucas said:
Only pirating is immoral. It is the only one where the publisher (not the developer as they have no role in this part) is not actually selling the copy to someone. In all the others, the developer has already sold that copy so at least they got something out of it. In pirating... they get nothing.

Same with used games as well. They see nothing from them.

Erm, yes they do, not directly, but they do. Have you ever sold some games you weren't fond of or had beaten, so you could then use that money to buy a new release? I would venture a guess most people have.

@ironman

Counterfeits are not perfect copies and unless it's money they get tried for fraud not sopyright infringement.

Pirated copies are not perfect either, you have to patch them (on PC) and in most cases you cannot play them on a validated server. And while technically the argument doesn't work, it was still a good analogy, For all intents and purposes Counterfits = Pirating

Also, in some counterfiting cases,  the purchaser thinks they are getting an origional, not a copy.

As to used game sales being good for the industry, then so are pirated games. Developers see none of the money in either case.

Nope, devs don't see money from Pirates, if they can pirate one game, they will pirate more. Also, The used game market, more games must be sold, one new game must be sold for one used game to be sold, in a pirate "market" one game is is bought, then given to many people who otherwise could have bought a new or used compy. So...you fail...now, you never told me what game dev you work for...who ever it is, let them know that they would be idiots to kill off the used game market.

 

If one person buys used games at reduced price he buy ALL his games at reduced price so the developers don't see any money to begin with, if you assume it's true for pirates why wouldn't it be true with used game users? Feels like you are failing here. As I said, developers don't see any money from used game sales. Prove me wrong.

@Wonk

So your excuse is that developers should be panny pinching and making us pay for the same game twice every 10 years or so? Yeah... sure... Also here is the problem with your "right" that you are selling. If you break that disc you are fucked, go try to get a new one statig that your right to play ahsn't been broken yet.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those expect Pirating.

I will never agree with developers/publishers on this one.  They want special treatment for some reason that I will never understand.  Well, I understand their reasoning, but I don't agree with it.

 

Why is it ok for me to sell my 330 second hand?  it's taking a sale away from BMW.

Why is it ok for me to sell my TV second hand? it's taking a sale away from Samsung.

Why is it ok for me to sell my DVD of Batman second hand?  it's taking a sale away from Warner Bros.

Why is it ok for me to sell my Pearl Jam CD second hand? it's taking a sale away from Epic records.

Governments don't seem to have a problem with the above, so why should the gaming industry get special treatment?

 

When the second hand market is mentioned with gaming (ebay, gamefly, etc), it becomes an issue.  

I do think that pirating is an issue (however, no idea on how to fight it).  

 

imo.



areseris said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those expect Pirating.

I will never agree with developers/publishers on this one.  They want special treatment for some reason that I will never understand.  Well, I understand their reasoning, but I don't agree with it.

 

Why is it ok for me to sell my 330 second hand?  it's taking a sale away from BMW.

Why is it ok for me to sell my TV second hand? it's taking a sale away from Samsung.

Why is it ok for me to sell my DVD of Batman second hand?  it's taking a sale away from Warner Bros.

Why is it ok for me to sell my Pearl Jam CD second hand? it's taking a sale away from Epic records.

Governments don't seem to have a problem with the above, so why should the gaming industry get special treatment?

 

When the second hand market is mentioned with gaming (ebay, gamefly, etc), it becomes an issue.  

I do think that pirating is an issue (however, no idea on how to fight it).  

 

imo.

Some governemnts don't see a problem with Pirating so why is pirating up there? I think used digital media is as much of a problem as piracy. Yes that means music too.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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vlad321 said:
ironman said:
vlad321 said:
Zucas said:
Only pirating is immoral. It is the only one where the publisher (not the developer as they have no role in this part) is not actually selling the copy to someone. In all the others, the developer has already sold that copy so at least they got something out of it. In pirating... they get nothing.

Same with used games as well. They see nothing from them.

Erm, yes they do, not directly, but they do. Have you ever sold some games you weren't fond of or had beaten, so you could then use that money to buy a new release? I would venture a guess most people have.

@ironman

Counterfeits are not perfect copies and unless it's money they get tried for fraud not sopyright infringement.

Pirated copies are not perfect either, you have to patch them (on PC) and in most cases you cannot play them on a validated server. And while technically the argument doesn't work, it was still a good analogy, For all intents and purposes Counterfits = Pirating

Also, in some counterfiting cases,  the purchaser thinks they are getting an origional, not a copy.

As to used game sales being good for the industry, then so are pirated games. Developers see none of the money in either case.

Nope, devs don't see money from Pirates, if they can pirate one game, they will pirate more. Also, The used game market, more games must be sold, one new game must be sold for one used game to be sold, in a pirate "market" one game is is bought, then given to many people who otherwise could have bought a new or used compy. So...you fail...now, you never told me what game dev you work for...who ever it is, let them know that they would be idiots to kill off the used game market.

 

If one person buys used games at reduced price he buy ALL his games at reduced price so the developers don't see any money to begin with, if you assume it's true for pirates why wouldn't it be true with used game users? Feels like you are failing here. As I said, developers don't see any money from used game sales. Prove me wrong.

Well, no actually, most people who primerily purchase used games will, in most cases, purchase a new one once in a while, and they are freeing up capital that will eventually be used by other people to purchase new releases. There is a differance between pirates and people who purchase used games...and that is money. One is more willing to spend it, the other one is more willing to keep it.

Oh hey, little hint, read my posts, this is the third time I have had to explain this simple concept to you, I grow weary of banging my head against the brick wall that is your failed argument. But, just to humor you... People are more likely to buy new releases if they can sell it later on down the road. People are more willing to buy new releases when they are unsure whether they will like the game or not, if they can sell it down the road and recoup some of their losses. Selling games you no longer want to play, or that you didn't like, gives you more money to spend on that new release that you really want to buy. 

Without the used game market, new game sales would plummet, many people would stop gaming, or game on old systems (in which case, the devs don't see a dime.)  and many more would have less money to purchase games with, and therefore would buy fewer games (in which case the devs see less money) And to top it off, system sales would plummet...after all, if you can't afford the games for the system, why buy it? Once system saled plummeted, there would be fewer devs for them, (devs would be closing their doors). Fewer devs means less games, less games means fewer good games, fewer good games means less gamers, less gamers means less sales, and the downword spiral continues. Worst case scenerio, the entire gaming market collapses because the greedy devs decided to alienate the people who can't afford to play games unless they buy them used.

@Wonk

So your excuse is that developers should be panny pinching and making us pay for the same game twice every 10 years or so? Yeah... sure... Also here is the problem with your "right" that you are selling. If you break that disc you are fucked, go try to get a new one statig that your right to play ahsn't been broken yet.

No, you payed for the rights to play that disc, you forfeit that right if you damage the disc beyond repair. simple as that.

Oh hey, Vlad, you never told me what game dev you work for.



Past Avatar picture!!!

Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

ironman said:
vlad321 said:
ironman said:
vlad321 said:
Zucas said:
Only pirating is immoral. It is the only one where the publisher (not the developer as they have no role in this part) is not actually selling the copy to someone. In all the others, the developer has already sold that copy so at least they got something out of it. In pirating... they get nothing.

Same with used games as well. They see nothing from them.

Erm, yes they do, not directly, but they do. Have you ever sold some games you weren't fond of or had beaten, so you could then use that money to buy a new release? I would venture a guess most people have.

@ironman

Counterfeits are not perfect copies and unless it's money they get tried for fraud not sopyright infringement.

Pirated copies are not perfect either, you have to patch them (on PC) and in most cases you cannot play them on a validated server. And while technically the argument doesn't work, it was still a good analogy, For all intents and purposes Counterfits = Pirating

Also, in some counterfiting cases,  the purchaser thinks they are getting an origional, not a copy.

As to used game sales being good for the industry, then so are pirated games. Developers see none of the money in either case.

Nope, devs don't see money from Pirates, if they can pirate one game, they will pirate more. Also, The used game market, more games must be sold, one new game must be sold for one used game to be sold, in a pirate "market" one game is is bought, then given to many people who otherwise could have bought a new or used compy. So...you fail...now, you never told me what game dev you work for...who ever it is, let them know that they would be idiots to kill off the used game market.

 

If one person buys used games at reduced price he buy ALL his games at reduced price so the developers don't see any money to begin with, if you assume it's true for pirates why wouldn't it be true with used game users? Feels like you are failing here. As I said, developers don't see any money from used game sales. Prove me wrong.

Well, no actually, most people who primerily purchase used games will, in most cases, purchase a new one once in a while, and they are freeing up capital that will eventually be used by other people to purchase new releases. There is a differance between pirates and people who purchase used games...and that is money. One is more willing to spend it, the other one is more willing to keep it.

Oh hey, little hint, read my posts, this is the third time I have had to explain this simple concept to you, I grow weary of banging my head against the brick wall that is your failed argument. But, just to humor you... People are more likely to buy new releases if they can sell it later on down the road. People are more willing to buy new releases when they are unsure whether they will like the game or not, if they can sell it down the road and recoup some of their losses. Selling games you no longer want to play, or that you didn't like, gives you more money to spend on that new release that you really want to buy. 

Without the used game market, new game sales would plummet, many people would stop gaming, or game on old systems (in which case, the devs don't see a dime.)  and many more would have less money to purchase games with, and therefore would buy fewer games (in which case the devs see less money) And to top it off, system sales would plummet...after all, if you can't afford the games for the system, why buy it? Once system saled plummeted, there would be fewer devs for them, (devs would be closing their doors). Fewer devs means less games, less games means fewer good games, fewer good games means less gamers, less gamers means less sales, and the downword spiral continues. Worst case scenerio, the entire gaming market collapses because the greedy devs decided to alienate the people who can't afford to play games unless they buy them used.

@Wonk

So your excuse is that developers should be panny pinching and making us pay for the same game twice every 10 years or so? Yeah... sure... Also here is the problem with your "right" that you are selling. If you break that disc you are fucked, go try to get a new one statig that your right to play ahsn't been broken yet.

No, you payed for the rights to play that disc, you forfeit that right if you damage the disc beyond repair. simple as that.

Oh hey, Vlad, you never told me what game dev you work for.

Pirates also buy new games once in a while and they keep their capital for when they do so. Pirates are trying to save money on video games and , lo and behold, so are used game buyers, one jsut saves more money than the other. Also you don't get it, they buy new releases if they can sell it down the road, yes, but it's better if they got it used and sold it used. That way they save on the initial investment and get a higher % back when they resell. Some even get 100% of their initial price back. In the end both piracy and used games are about saving money and hurt developers s much.

Without used games they would lose some sales, just like with piracy, and maybe they will gain some honest to god money from others who don't wait to get it used. Just like you can saay that pirates will always pirate, I too can say that people who buy their games used will always buy them used. Just as piracy fans the game out to broader range of people (basically free publicity so honest people do buy it when they hear of it) so does used game by providing that one single person a little extra money.

Also I could do with fewer devs and fewer games. The past several years have only produced crap games all around. Game were better pre-2006.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

vlad321 said:
ironman said:

Oh hey, Vlad, you never told me what game dev you work for.

Pirates also buy new games once in a while and they keep their capital for when they do so. Pirates are trying to save money on video games and , lo and behold, so are used game buyers, one jsut saves more money than the other. Also you don't get it, they buy new releases if they can sell it down the road, yes, but it's better if they got it used and sold it used. That way they save on the initial investment and get a higher % back when they resell. Some even get 100% of their initial price back. In the end both piracy and used games are about saving money and hurt developers s much.

Pirates buy new games at a much lesser rate. They can get the game for free, in many cases before the actual release...why bother spending money on a game that they can get for free. Also, Pirates don't open up capital for gamers who ususally buy used games. The used game market helps devs, unlike pirating where one person buys the game, and possibly thousands get that one copy, for free. In the used market, somebody had to buy each game brand new before it can be sold, and selling the game once they are done with it, or if it is a horrible game, they gain back some of their investment and in most cases turn around and purchase that new release that they really want.

Without used games they would lose some sales, just like with piracy, and maybe they will gain some honest to god money from others who don't wait to get it used. Just like you can saay that pirates will always pirate, I too can say that people who buy their games used will always buy them used. Just as piracy fans the game out to broader range of people (basically free publicity so honest people do buy it when they hear of it) so does used game by providing that one single person a little extra money.

Yes, but unlike Priacy, the used game market frees up capital for those willing, or able to invest in new games.

Also I could do with fewer devs and fewer games. The past several years have only produced crap games all around. Game were better pre-2006.

I beg to differ, the que offered at E3 for both the PS3 and the 360 looks pretty sweet. Reguardless of what you think is a better game, people are still willing to buy games. Besides, fewer devs means less choice. less choice means less people will actually find the games they want to play, less gamers = less systems sold, less systems sold = less money for devs, less money for devs = worse games and less devs...and once again, the vortex of doom spins.

You never answered my question, what dev do you work for. Whoever it is, I would find great irony in a situation where they went out of business ( due to the scenario I layed out), thus becoming a victom of your "fewer devs and fewer games is better" mentality.

 



Past Avatar picture!!!

Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

To be honest, I never gave that much of a damn to the subject. Whether I pirate a game or not won't change the overall picture at all. If a game is worth buying, I'll buy it nevertheless.

Oh, and I think piracy is the worst out of these options, since developers would never see monetary return in this case.



 

 

 

 

 

ironman said:
vlad321 said:
ironman said:

Oh hey, Vlad, you never told me what game dev you work for.

Pirates also buy new games once in a while and they keep their capital for when they do so. Pirates are trying to save money on video games and , lo and behold, so are used game buyers, one jsut saves more money than the other. Also you don't get it, they buy new releases if they can sell it down the road, yes, but it's better if they got it used and sold it used. That way they save on the initial investment and get a higher % back when they resell. Some even get 100% of their initial price back. In the end both piracy and used games are about saving money and hurt developers s much.

Pirates buy new games at a much lesser rate. They can get the game for free, in many cases before the actual release...why bother spending money on a game that they can get for free. Also, Pirates don't open up capital for gamers who ususally buy used games. The used game market helps devs, unlike pirating where one person buys the game, and possibly thousands get that one copy, for free. In the used market, somebody had to buy each game brand new before it can be sold, and selling the game once they are done with it, or if it is a horrible game, they gain back some of their investment and in most cases turn around and purchase that new release that they really want.

Without used games they would lose some sales, just like with piracy, and maybe they will gain some honest to god money from others who don't wait to get it used. Just like you can saay that pirates will always pirate, I too can say that people who buy their games used will always buy them used. Just as piracy fans the game out to broader range of people (basically free publicity so honest people do buy it when they hear of it) so does used game by providing that one single person a little extra money.

Yes, but unlike Priacy, the used game market frees up capital for those willing, or able to invest in new games.

Also I could do with fewer devs and fewer games. The past several years have only produced crap games all around. Game were better pre-2006.

I beg to differ, the que offered at E3 for both the PS3 and the 360 looks pretty sweet. Reguardless of what you think is a better game, people are still willing to buy games. Besides, fewer devs means less choice. less choice means less people will actually find the games they want to play, less gamers = less systems sold, less systems sold = less money for devs, less money for devs = worse games and less devs...and once again, the vortex of doom spins.

You never answered my question, what dev do you work for. Whoever it is, I would find great irony in a situation where they went out of business ( due to the scenario I layed out), thus becoming a victom of your "fewer devs and fewer games is better" mentality.

 

Here you are assuming that used game buyers are ever willing to buy some new games for the full price. Then why do we not assume that pirates too are willing to shell out money for some games? A little double standard going on? Did you know that music pirates actually buy MORE music than people who don't pirate?



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835