GT5- I agree on that. Don't get used to it.

God of War III- I can grudgingly agree to disagree with you on that, because I accept that some people don't have the faith to think it will outsell the original. However, I will say that GoWIII is launching earlier in the generation which gives it more time to sell, it is a more popular franchise now, and has had three iterations, and because of the PS3's lack of quality exclusives when compared to the PS2 (all consoles have a lack of quality exclusives compared to the PS2), GoWIII has more hype. Never underestimate hype. 3.5-4 million

Uncharted 2- You mention R2 and Pacific Rift. I will firstly say that R2 was a poor excuse for an FPS, and by far the worst piece of crap Insomniac have ever released. Okay, exaggerating a bit. The point is that it WAS NOT GOOD. RFOM was infinitely better, and fortunately people have some taste and chose to pick up CoD4 and WaW instead. Pacific Rift was pretty good, but to be honest, nobody cared about it.

RFOM and MotorStorm were both launch or first few month titles, and early adopters really had no choice. They were the only decent PS3 exclusives until Heavenly Sword and Warhawk, and then to a greater extent, Ratchet and Uncharted, came out. While people may have greatly enjoyed RFOM (I hope they did), word of mouth on R2 would have been awful. And as I've mentioned, far better FPS have come out since then. R2 did nothing but copy them and lose all originality. Ho-hum. As for MotorStorm, people probably thought "okay, cool, this will pass some time" when they bought it, and didn't enjoy it nearly enough to buy a sequel in holiday 2008, when the PS3 actually had a quality lineup (including, Darth, MGS4!).

Comparing Uncharted to these two is rather foolish on your part. Firstly, Uncharted was pure concentrated awesome, while RFOM was a slightly flawed, though innovative FPS in a gen FULL of FPS, and MotorStorm was a typical *yawn* offroad racer which wasn't particularly good, really. Uncharted 2 has visibly improved on the original, adding multiplayer, received a LOT of coverage due to the awesomeness it is right now, and the awesomeness of the original, it has won numerous awards, and whereas last year's holiday the PS3 was in a bit of a slump, this year, it's on a ROLL, Sony have learned how to advertise, and a rise in the number of gaymers will cause more people to buy it due to Drake's buns (now with 4 times the polygons!) 3.5-4 million + 1 for Seece.

Heavy Rain- I'd like to think it would sell more, but it won't. Sorry, CGI. 700-800k

Yakuza 4- Hold on, Yakuza 3 won't release in the West for at least another year, and Yakuza 4 is "upcoming"? Okay... whatever.

FF Versus 13- WHAT? It's a Final Fantasy. Main series or not, it won't sell less than 3 million. It could come close to 1.8 million FIRST WEEK (okay not quite). 3.5-4 million On reading Darth's ideas, I've found I was too optimistic. I change this to 2-2.5 million.

Ratchet and Clank ACIT: Similar to Uncharted 2, though to a lesser extent. Sales boost for PS3, huge upgrades over previous iteration, but without the bun boost. I still think you've underpredicted a little. 2-2.25 million.

MAG: Have some faith! It has 256 players and...you're probably right. But I'll be nice and optimistic and say 1-1.5 million.

The Last Guardian: This should sell 20 million, but it won't. SoTC sold 920k in Japan + NA. No EU numbers. ICO, meanwhile, sold 900k, the majority of which was in EU (Wikipedia). Therefore, the least SoTC should logically have sold is 1.7 million. Maybe as high as 2 million, because Europeans are awesome (this is something we can agree on, I'm sure). Anyway, hype, increased popularity of internet, and Team ICO with it, increased sales, yada, yada, 1.5-2 million. Hopefully more.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, and does not reflect the opinion of Sony fans. If you want to say I was overly optimistic after these games launch/stop selling, please do. However, DO NOT say that "Sony fans" overpredicted them. Okay?

In addition to what I've already said to Darth, that one really sticks out. Honestly, RPG, I expect that sort of logic from the less-intelligent Microsoft fans (whom I will not name). Preorders are probably low because nobody knows when the game is releasing. Probably 2009, but the people don't know that. When it's confirmed at TGS, expect preorders to skyrocket (if there are some ads saying that it releases in 2009). Plus, GT has always has great legs, and not that fantastic an opening week- as Darth said, GT4 had a lower opening than GTA4 PS3. But GTA4 PS3 won't come near 10 million. Of course, GT4 did break 2 million first week, and GT5 should do the same- if MGS4 can get 1.7 million FW, GT5 can get 300k more than that.

Of course, Europe is the largest GT fanbase, and I think 4 million is too low. Perhaps 5-6 million. 2-3 million in NA, around 1 million in Japan. 8-10 million overall.

I also think that Final Fantasy 13 Versus will do 5.5 - 6.0 Mill.

GOW III - 3.0 million

Uncharted 2 - 2.7 million

GT5 - It shall hit Ten Million, dangit.

Heavy Rain - 650k

Ryu Ga Gotoku 4 - 600k

FFXIII Versus - 4.4 million

Ratchet & Clank: ACiT - 1.8 million

MAG - 1.4 million

The Last Guardian - 1 million

Wots packins?

A pack in would be a game which simply comes with every console sold eg Forza 2 and Viva Pinata 2 here in the UK was with every 360 purchased. A bundle obviously is just a popular game which is bundled so that people whom want the game + a console choose it.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

They sound like the same thing to me. A game included with a console to add extra motivation for purchasing the console.

But apparently there's a HUGE difference between these two things that you just haven't explained.

*gow 3 - 2.8m
*Uncharted 2 - 2.5m
*Ratchet AciT- 1.6m
*M.A.G - 1m+
*Heavy rain - 1.3m
*GT5 - 8m

Well say with Forza 2 it came with every pro console sold for a short time and it was not possible to get the console without Forza 2. For bundles such as Halo 3 that was not the case as people whom wanted it got it however they could still get the pro by itself. So one could get the console stand alone or with Halo 3 but with Forza 2 it was standard with every pro console sold.

It's clear to me what the difference is however my IQ does exceed that of a banana.

Well then, excluding the fact that I couldn't find a source to confirm that, that's not really true. Forza 2 might have come with every pro 360 sold for a short time, but it didn't come with every 360. The sales numbers shows that. So by your definition, it was very much possible to get a 360 without Forza 2, and your example is wrong. You could buy a 360 with Forza 2 or without it. As for Halo 3, it had been a standalone game for a long time before it was bundled with the 360. So basically, neither game fits your definition of a pack-in. And I'd like to actually see some kind of source to back up these definitions. It shouldn't be so hard if they're the correct ones.

And that sounded like an insult to me, although you do come from NeoGAF, so that's no surprise.