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Forums - Sony Discussion - Naughty Dog "Maxed Out" The PS3 With Uncharted 2

leo-j on 11 September 2009

gametrailers:

Uncharted 2 is by far the best looking game we have ever seen with our eyes created yet




 

mM
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JEDE3 on 11 September 2009
CGI-Quality said:
Procrastinato said:
twesterm said:
CGI-Quality said:
twesterm said:
 

No, I'm pretty sure they only say that to create more buzz about the game.

Again, taking their own words (paraphrased a bit since I don't have quote)-- anyone that tells you they are using 100% of a console are blowing smoke up your ass.

And hey, Joystiq and threads like this prove it works so yay for them.

If that's true, this would be hypocritical, I agree.

I found the quote but forgot how to do the whole cache thing (if I can even do that) and don't feel like taking the time to try to figure it out, but:

But on there Jak and Dexter FAQ page:

Any developer who gives you a “percent of system used” answer is blowing smoke. The truth is that every developer uses 100% of the systems power on every game. Some just get more out of that 100% than others.

This is about the best proof I can give.

And what they say there makes perfect sense-- you can use 100% of the system, and most peopel do, but what matters is how they utilize it.  Looking at Uncharted and what I've seen of Uncharted 2 it looks like they have utlized it quite well.

 

The PS3 tuning tools show you the time, during a frame, during which each SPU (and the PPU threads) is idle or busy.  The gives a pretty good indication of how well you've parallel-ified your app to work with the Cell.

Most devs who state they are using "X %" of the SPUs, are basically just stating that they have only embraced the parallism of the processor to that degree.  If the SPUs are constantly busy, that's a pretty impressive accomplishment, because it means they've ported enough work over to the SPUs, and organized their game frame in such a manner that all of them are in use at all times.

Sure, their code can probably be optimized further... but I believe the claim is more about not letting cores go idle -- which is the real challenge in utilizing the PS3 to its full potential, in the end.

Most devs do NOT use all the SPUs, all the time.  Many early apps and ports didn't even use the SPUs at all.  There's a big difference between last gen and this one, in that regard, so the quote you have there is really out of context.

In any case, I think they have good reason to be proud of their engine -- they obviously have accomplished what many devs in the future will be striving for... efficient usage of a parallel architecture.  A much harder task than you might think, for complicated apps.

My gosh, you seem to REALLY know a lot about this stuff. I guess ya learn something new everyday...

Twesterm has taken it out of context... but its not too far off. what bothers me when twesterm quotes it all the time is his relating what 1 person said to another person to make the whole company have the same opion as 2 different individuals



twesterm on 11 September 2009
Procrastinato said:
twesterm said:

I found the quote but forgot how to do the whole cache thing (if I can even do that) and don't feel like taking the time to try to figure it out, but:

But on there Jak and Dexter FAQ page:

Any developer who gives you a “percent of system used” answer is blowing smoke. The truth is that every developer uses 100% of the systems power on every game. Some just get more out of that 100% than others.

This is about the best proof I can give.

And what they say there makes perfect sense-- you can use 100% of the system, and most peopel do, but what matters is how they utilize it.  Looking at Uncharted and what I've seen of Uncharted 2 it looks like they have utlized it quite well.

 

The PS3 tuning tools show you the time, during a frame, during which each SPU (and the PPU threads) is idle or busy.  The gives a pretty good indication of how well you've parallel-ified your app to work with the Cell.

Most devs who state they are using "X %" of the SPUs, are basically just stating that they have only embraced the parallism of the processor to that degree.  If the SPUs are constantly busy, that's a pretty impressive accomplishment, because it means they've ported enough work over to the SPUs, and organized their game frame in such a manner that all of them are in use at all times.

Sure, their code can probably be optimized further... but I believe the claim is more about not letting cores go idle -- which is the real challenge in utilizing the PS3 to its full potential, in the end.

Most devs do NOT use all the SPUs, all the time.  Many early apps and ports didn't even use the SPUs at all.  There's a big difference between last gen and this one, in that regard, so the quote you have there is really out of context.

In any case, I think they have good reason to be proud of their engine -- they obviously have accomplished what many devs in the future will be striving for... efficient usage of a parallel architecture.  A much harder task than you might think, for complicated apps.

It may be out of context but it's still relevant-- anyone can use 100%  of the PS3.  That's easy.  The hard part is actually doing it well.

That's what that quote means and that absolutely still applies.  Anyone that just comes out and says Oh yeah, we're using the PS3 to it's MAX potential is just blowing smoke up your ass and trying to create buzz for their game (and I doubt even Naughty Dog is using 100% all the time).

Luckily, Naughty Dog is pretty awesome and hopefully Uncharted 2 will be as every bit as awesome as Uncharted.



 

MikeB on 11 September 2009
Procrastinato said:
twesterm said:
CGI-Quality said:
twesterm said:
 

No, I'm pretty sure they only say that to create more buzz about the game.

Again, taking their own words (paraphrased a bit since I don't have quote)-- anyone that tells you they are using 100% of a console are blowing smoke up your ass.

And hey, Joystiq and threads like this prove it works so yay for them.

If that's true, this would be hypocritical, I agree.

I found the quote but forgot how to do the whole cache thing (if I can even do that) and don't feel like taking the time to try to figure it out, but:

But on there Jak and Dexter FAQ page:

Any developer who gives you a “percent of system used” answer is blowing smoke. The truth is that every developer uses 100% of the systems power on every game. Some just get more out of that 100% than others.

This is about the best proof I can give.

And what they say there makes perfect sense-- you can use 100% of the system, and most peopel do, but what matters is how they utilize it.  Looking at Uncharted and what I've seen of Uncharted 2 it looks like they have utlized it quite well.

 

The PS3 tuning tools show you the time, during a frame, during which each SPU (and the PPU threads) is idle or busy.  The gives a pretty good indication of how well you've parallel-ified your app to work with the Cell.

Most devs who state they are using "X %" of the SPUs, are basically just stating that they have only embraced the parallism of the processor to that degree.  If the SPUs are constantly busy, that's a pretty impressive accomplishment, because it means they've ported enough work over to the SPUs, and organized their game frame in such a manner that all of them are in use at all times.

Sure, their code can probably be optimized further... but I believe the claim is more about not letting cores go idle -- which is the real challenge in utilizing the PS3 to its full potential, in the end.

Most devs do NOT use all the SPUs, all the time.  Many early apps and ports didn't even use the SPUs at all.  There's a big difference between last gen and this one, in that regard, so the quote you have there is really out of context.

In any case, I think they have good reason to be proud of their engine -- they obviously have accomplished what many devs in the future will be striving for... efficient usage of a parallel architecture.  A much harder task than you might think, for complicated apps.

Excellent posting.

Certainly their game engine can be optimised a lot. The engine was designed to not be optimised too quickly as long as there is a lot of unused processing time. That's amongst the programming tips by some devs behind this game engine.

The amount of low-level code needed to truly max out the cell would be mindboggling, more so than for other CPUs sporting fewer cores or processing units. Actually I think that will never be achieved, but neither for most modern CPUs (especially in consumer PCs as the main operating systems MacOS, Linux or Windows are far from low-level optimised to begin with). But on the PS3 with mostly static uniform specifications this makes far more sense (like Wii or 360).



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Nightwish224 on 11 September 2009

Ugh this lady's voice was so annoying.



Everyone needs to play Lost Odyssey! Any opposition to this and I will have to just say, "If it's a fight you want, you got it!"

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Aj_habfan on 11 September 2009

Don't care. That pic is hilarious though.



Procrastinato on 11 September 2009
twesterm said:

It may be out of context but it's still relevant-- anyone can use 100%  of the PS3.  That's easy.  The hard part is actually doing it well.

That's what that quote means and that absolutely still applies.  Anyone that just comes out and says Oh yeah, we're using the PS3 to it's MAX potential is just blowing smoke up your ass and trying to create buzz for their game (and I doubt even Naughty Dog is using 100% all the time).

Luckily, Naughty Dog is pretty awesome and hopefully Uncharted 2 will be as every bit as awesome as Uncharted.

The first part I bolded is actually not true, and its the fundamental reason anyone ever even states that the "PS3 require some skill to utilize" or whatnot.  You don't get to use the SPUs unless you do so explicitly, and they represent the majority of the Cell's processing power.  The 360 (or any "standard" multicore architecture), conversely, allows you to use all 3 cores very easily -- but due to some architecture issues (shared cache, bus, etc.), they are much harder (than the Cell) to optimize the usage of, after you've got that first hurdle (of actually getting them working for you) beat.

The second bolded statement I agree wth completely.  Actually utilizing the SPUs "100%" of the time would basically require a simple parallel app, like Folding @ Home, and I doubt it can actually be accomplished in a "real" game... ever.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if ND wasn't using the SPUs darn near 100% of the time during a frame.  I'd call somewhere between 80% and 90% (of "not idle time") close enough to qualify as "maxed out", personally.

 



 

ph4nt on 11 September 2009

What is this nonsense?

Uncharted 2 probably only uses 10% of the true power of the PS3, they just need to hire better programmers.



Stefan.De.Machtige on 11 September 2009

They have really maxed out the term 'Maxed Out '. Just let it go, people.



In the wilderness we go alone with our new knowledge and strength.

disolitude on 11 September 2009

This is good news. Naughty Dog can finally stop maxing out consoles and can focus on fun factor.

Come on guys, lets see you make something as fun as Splosion man. You don't have to "max out" the graphics with every game.