Ok, so you can say Mario games happen to be easier to pick up and play than some other titles, fair enough. As you said though, Mario titles hold onto the attention of those that 'grew up' with Mario (i am guilty), but they are created to generated new gamers, this doesn't however make Mario any less core than other game series, it just means Mario also happens to appeal to others. Mario titles still provide the essential material that the core want and expect in the games, you can't use the fact that Mario appeals to a broader audience as an excuse as to why he is not core.

I agree with your definition of a casual game, however a lot more titles fall into this category than you make out. Final Fantasy is a primarily turn based, RPG series, and GTA is a sandbox game. These are not auto handicaps for them to be more core than other genre's (IE, Mario's primarily platform games). Granted, they're maybe not as simple to pick it up and just play it (though i could argue against that), but it's not hard to get the hang of. Renowned and popular franchises can be called casual, if they're selling extremely well, they obviously appeal to a wide variety of people, or the casuals should we say; you cannot insinuate that the popularity of certain franchises are totally core centric because they aren't as easy to pick up and play as some others, you can't say GTA and FF do not appeal to casual crowds but Mario somehow does.

No. For the first sentence, the PSP having less casual appealing games does not make it more hardcore, it makes it less casual. The DS has more casual titles for sure, however that doesn't blight the fact that it also has a gigantic offering of core games as well, just as many as the PSP. Admittedly these aren't as gorier or "mature" (as you say) as most of the core games on the PSP, but this does not make the games any less valid or hardcore.

Nintendo has always focused on everyone like you said, but that doesn't automatically mean they don't think of or provide core games. The casual to core game ratio for the Wii and DS is very questionable, but if people would use common sense and just look, they will find those hardcore games that haters and idiots like to claim are so non-existent. It's just like when people were hating on the PS1/X and PS2 for having so many casual games, they had core games as well, and the amount of casual games do not disregard or bane this fact.

All I know, re: this whole Mario debate, is that most of the people I know who really like Mario games also own and play a huge variety of other games. On the other hand, I know a LOT of people who only play Halo, COD, etc. So really, doesn't that make Halo and COD casual, and Mario hardcore?

This whole argument is completely stupid. S.T.A.G.E. says that the DS is less targeted toward core gamers than PSP because PSP has a higher PERCENTAGE of core games, despite the DS having a vastly higher QUANTITY of core games. No one is arguing that the PSP is casual, but if you write off the DS because it has Brain Age and that cooking game, you are missing out on the largest and best (BY FAR!!!!) core library of any system this generation.

deadt0m said: All I know, re: this whole Mario debate, is that most of the people I know who really like Mario games also own and play a huge variety of other games. On the other hand, I know a LOT of people who only play Halo, COD, etc. So really, doesn't that make Halo and COD casual, and Mario hardcore? This whole argument is completely stupid. S.T.A.G.E. says that the DS is less targeted toward core gamers than PSP because PSP has a higher PERCENTAGE of core games, despite the DS having a vastly higher QUANTITY of core games. No one is arguing that the PSP is casual, but if you write off the DS because it has Brain Age and that cooking game, you are missing out on the largest and best (BY FAR!!!!) core library of any system this generation.

Who was writing off the DS? The topic is about what Nintendo is doing right and Sony is doing so wrong with the PSP.

Yeah, nobody dismissing DS here, as a mostly hardcore gamer, I'd really like to buy both DS and PSP... Maybe I will... Then I would buy only 'core' games on DS, there are tons of them, I agree.

S.T.A.G.E. said: deadt0m said: All I know, re: this whole Mario debate, is that most of the people I know who really like Mario games also own and play a huge variety of other games. On the other hand, I know a LOT of people who only play Halo, COD, etc. So really, doesn't that make Halo and COD casual, and Mario hardcore? This whole argument is completely stupid. S.T.A.G.E. says that the DS is less targeted toward core gamers than PSP because PSP has a higher PERCENTAGE of core games, despite the DS having a vastly higher QUANTITY of core games. No one is arguing that the PSP is casual, but if you write off the DS because it has Brain Age and that cooking game, you are missing out on the largest and best (BY FAR!!!!) core library of any system this generation. Who was writing off the DS? The topic is about what Nintendo is doing right and Sony is doing so wrong with the PSP.

 

I thought it was 'core' gamers thought what Sony was doing was right.

Nintendo was also doing something right, but not for 'core' gamers until you change your definition of 'core'.

I think it's because the PSP is an ugly handheld :p

Well maybe because of the easy piracy and lack of games.

There's no lack of great games at all on PSP, there are 16 games that got 86+ on meta for example, vs 19 on DS. They're roughly on par in terms of great games.

And that's before MGS, GT PSP, GTA, LBP...

The reason why DS > PSP in sales is obviously the casual games since casual gamers are much more numerous than us and PSP doesn't appeal to casual gamers at all (no casual games)... Seems pretty simple to me, but that's just my opinion. Every 5 to 12 year old has a DS today and none has a PSP, it 'slightly' helps DS sales.

if you guys really want to know what Sony is doing wrong, just look at the PSP GO, and if you have some common sense, you'd want to hit your head against the wall to see if you are just being delusional.

S.T.A.G.E. said: IxisNaugus said: S.T.A.G.E. said: IxisNaugus said: @ TX109. Seriously, don't bother. The guy thinks Mario isn't core. It was at that point i realized he is a lost cause. He made ridiculous claims and dodged multiple questions, he is grossly misinformed and is clearly ignorant to the bigger picture. On topic: I don't know where some people in the previous pages are getting this notion that the PSP is more "hardcore" than the DS or has more core games. I hope someone is willing to elaborate, because i am not aware of the sense in that. Mario games are casual titles with a hardcore following. Mario's concept and reason for being isn't aimed at the core. Hell...there barely was a core during its creation. What do you mean Mario's concept and reason for being isn't aimed at the core? I'm lost here, please clear things up. Mario titles provide a slick, well crafted experience that millions enjoy and respect. Exactly why do you think Mario has a hardcore following? The titles have obviously proved their worth, do you think they are rated highly for no reason? In fact, going by what you say, GTA is under the same roof isn't it, and Final Fantasy... and everything else! My question has still fallen on deaf ears it seems. No one has explained to me how the PSP is more hardcore than the DS. As I said before, there was barely a hardcore audience at the time the first Mario was out. Mario is a casual mascot, aimed to suck casuals and children into the realm of videogames (IE: Like they did with me). He is put in cartoons, books as a image of what Nintendo has to offer. Mario titles are well crafted, but they are created to generated new gamers and also hold onto the attention of those who have grown with Mario. When I say a hardcore following, I am stating that the brand has loyalists, who find quality in the product and will play it in a more challenging manner than say casuals who will just play from beginning to end. These loyalists will find all the secret rooms and all that the game has to offer. Casuals....do not care to do type of thing. Final Fantasy is a JRPG, which takes strategy. You need to put things into their proper categories. When you say casual...you think anything that is popular. No! Stop that. A casual title, is a 'pick up and play' game that is crafted intentionally to catch the eye of non-gamers. A game that can be played within an instant without having to learn sixteen to eighteen buttons and you can be on your way to having fun. It doesn't provide and intermediate challenge, unless one seeks to progress or one cares to see all there is to see in that game. The PSP is more hardcore than the DS, because it doesn't have too many games that appeal to casuals. It has the gorier, grittier, mature titles. It has intermediate level games or higher at best with few casual titles. The DS is a great portable that has way more games that casuals can "pick up and play" along with games that hardcore can play as well. Except on the flip side, theres less of a percentage of hardcore games on that portable. As one person said before...for every hardcore game, there are five casual games on the DS. Nintendo has always thought of everyone and not just the hardcore. This is what everyone seems to forget.

basically what i get every time i read a post form you is this: if it's not packed with gore, tits, and excessive cursing, it's casual.

say what you will, but the early mario games were quite challenging. back then casual appeal wasn't what it is today. super mario bros. on the NES sold over 40 million not because it was casual, but because it was a good game. also as far as SMG goes, you said it yourself, there is enough material for hardcores (...loyalists, who find quality in the product and will play it in a more challenging manner... will find all the secret rooms and all that the game has to offer.)

as i stated before, i have had enough of t3h hardc0rez looking down on the wii because not every game has a mature rating. yes, nintendo appeals more to casuals. that does not mean you can't find a "hardcore" experience on the wii or ds. it's true that the PSP has a higher percentage of core games than the DS, but when you take a good look at each handheld's library, you notice that the DS has a much higher quantity of core games.

I'm not here to bash the PSP, i own one myself and think it is a fine machine. however, you are sorely mistaken if you think you can find a greater number of core games on it.

to get back on topic, the DS's appeal to women is not the only reason the DS is winning. there is also the matter of better software, better price, battery life, and the abundance of piracy on the PSP. no one factor can attribute to one consoles success.