1. So? If the argument is old, does not mean it's bad. In fact, it implies the argument is strong because it has been used so often. Now, the reason sale=quality is it acts like a statistic. If I ask you or someone else, they will give me two different answers about a game. Now, sales show how many people wanted that title, and they will tell their friends (increasing sales). So, it acts like a survey of what people though. How many titles are sold back to the store show hom many people were displeased. Simple.
2. No, it's a flop becuase how how many journalist and fanboys hyped it up, and it under preformed. No to mention, your compairing KZ to a console RTS with no advertising. Face it, KZ2 under preformed.
   
3. No. The reason I am not touching point 3 is because it is a value judgement. Go back to my point one and notice that I mentioned sales are quantifiable. I can not measure how much someone liked a title. Sales are a superior judge becuase they are quantifiable. You need to understand "better" is not an argument word. It's a word used by people who do not know how to argue.
4. OGM, whaa whaaa. Quit crying. The 360 and PS3 ARE casualized PCs. Everything they do is trying to be like a PC. Heck, the PS3 can run Linex for Pete's sake. YES, you can probably build a better computer for cheaper (but I do not know this for fact). All you are doing is pulling at straws. He only said graphic 3 times and in relation to how they are a commodity (which is true).
5. N/A
6. Here is where I'm, going agree with Fryfat. There are too many modles for the same system. As such, I can not find the appropriate price, so I am going to agree with you. Now, here is my problem. This is not an argument. Boo Hooo, he said the system was $100 more then it is. WHY does this matter AT ALL. Why do Sony fanboys so sour over the system's price. They always have been. And you said 600. 600 was not on the site, meaning your still pethetic.
7. I love how you are trying to rationalize this. Let's face reality. Sony has been really arrogant. It doesn't matter if they are less arrogant, they are still pretty so. Problem where when that was writen. The system is to expensive. It is still the most expensive unit on the market. I say the system does not have a strong line up because the system isn't being moved by these titles and there sales aren't going to be amazing. You also said that it is an opinion anyway. Your trying to prove a point. WHY use an opinion? Since my opinion can be different for no reason, you can't argue it. That fact that you are trying to refute these is bad, and you are not doing a good job.
8. You are right. It is spelled "Party Babyz"

Here is what I find hypocritical. Your claiming him to be a fanboy, but your just as big a fanboy as he is, if not worse. At least he has quantifiable facts to back up his fanboyish arguments, where you still here crying infront of a computer screen because the system you like is failing both the consumers and the company. If you are going to use ad homenin on him, than I'm going to use it on you.

 1.You didnt answer my question

2.Fanboys and internet dont make the game sells. Example:Madworld

3.There is this thing called Metacritic, you know. And when i said ''better'' i meant best multiplatforms this gen. Or maybe you dont like them because they are not on the wii?

4.This is the point where you lost all your credibility. Its not even worth of replaying.You obviuosly dont own a HD console

5.There are 2 models. THAT'S ALL!!! Is it hard for you to remeber? 360 on the other hand has 3 models.

6.Sony's arrogance ( now very small ) is coming from their last succeses. Nintendo was also pretty arrogant back in 5th generation and they are starting to get arrogant again.

7.Oh please, Wii didnt have any good software to boost it for more than 6 months and its still selling good (better than last year btw) so your logic fails. PS3 is not selling great because of its price.

8.And how exactly is PS3 failing its customers???Maybe because its getting new exclusives every 2 months? The research in Japan have showen that gamers out there are MORE satisfied with Sony's and Microsoft consoles than with Wii or DS.

And i am not ''crying infront of a computer screen because the system i like is failing'' You see, enjoyment i get from my console its not coming from its sales. That's something wii fanboys will never understand

That was Level 5. Sony just published it.

Wild ARMS was by one of their own developers, though, and those games are good. Too bad the Legend of Dragoon team isn't there anymore (they worked on Lost Odessy).

BladeOfGod,

Points 1 to 8 have been beaten to death these last 2 years on vgchartz.

You basically don't have what i would call "gaming sales culture or history" to understand what Smashchu or FryBread are saying.

I suggest you make some research in past topics because your points are "naïve" casual PC ones.

@BladeOfGod

There really is no adequate metric for the quality of the product, and videogames are not the first medium where what the elitest experts hated the products that the general population loved. At the same time, there are countless examples of famous painters, movies, books, and muscians who were hated by the elitest experts in their time because they weren't producing the kinds of works that they were supposed to; and many of these works and the people that produced them are largely considered the best and most important works for their time, primarily because they weren't producing the same generic crap that the elitest experts wanted them to produce.

There is a segment of the population who wants videogames to be a more "Mature" medium and to approximate the "Artistic" mediums that they think are more important. In contrast, the largest bulk of the videogame consumer base sees videogames as a form of play that is acceptable for people of all ages to perform. While a game like Wii Sports and Carnival Games may not come close to the concept of videogames as art, they are excellent examples of videogames as play, and receiving negative criticism because of this may not be justified; it would be similar to saying that Brittany Spears newest album is poor because she didn't take the opportunity to make it into a gigantic political commentary.

Asking why games like Madworld performed poorly is a lot like asking why Reservoir Dogs did so poorly at the box office ...

1. I answered your question. Look at Happy Squirle's post. He explains it much better then I could.
2. Ah, so you are agreeing with me that KZ2 didn't do so well despite the hype. Or, how about this. Explain to me how it's not a flop. Outselling a RTS on a console isn't an answer
3. Agggg, still using the word better. Do you not understand? I keep saying I'm not touching this point, but you go on ad on like some clockwork soldier. Again "better" has no quanifiable value. I can not measure better. The reason for sales is that it is quantifiable. Better, is a value judgement. "Madworld is better then Wii Sports" is not an argument nor a claim. It is an opinion. Saying "madworld sold less then Wii Sports" is a claim becuase I can prove it. You really need to learn how to do this whole arguing thing.
4. Oh good. Then I don't need to say why your a big moron. Yes. I'm going to insult you becuase you are insulting me. Ad homenin is not a good argument. Heck it isn't one at all.
5. I counted about 8 on Wikipedia.
6. Unlike this generation, Nintendo still did well in the US compaired to Sony, so they had some right to be arrogant. However, much like Sonmy now, I could critize them for being arrogant despite their status in the industry at that point (same with Sony). Nintendo has not been arrogant since Iwata came around (save for maybe Reggie every now and then). Sony, however, still is.
7. Wii Sports sold the Wii. It had software people wanted. The PS3 doesn't have software people want. "Oh Oh, but Metacritic said Wii Sports sucks and MGS4 is da best." It doesn't mean consumers want to play it. It means journalist like it, and thier opinion has been irelevant for a while.
8. PS3 has always been failing customers. Consumers don't want PS3s. Some fans polled by a magazine may like the system, but people are still picking up Wiis while the PS3 sits on the shelf. It's not fitting the consumers wants, but the Wii is. This is why Wii Sports is importaint. It makes consumers have to have a Wii (like Super Mario bros did for the NES). People have to have it. But this is no game on the PS3 people have to have outside the self proclaimed "hardcore."
   

The reason you are crying is that you sit here and type up piss poor responces to an argument about said system. If you were prefectly satisfied with your system, why aren't you playing it right now? Instead, your here, on the internet. This either tells me you are a fanboy, which would make you a huge hypocrit. Or, you are insecure about your console choice and you are here trying to defend it.

2.NO, i said that hype doesnt sell the game. People can hype it and say its gonna sell 500 million first day but that doesnt mean its gonna happen.

3.Why are you always trying to back up your argument with sales???By your logic i can easly say PS2 is the best console out there and DS is the best handheld out there. Metacritic is saying which game is better more accurate than sales. And FYI those games i listed in my first post sold pretty damn well, (cod4,gtaIV,Bioshock)

4.Great argument, hands down

5.Most of them are disconected. There are only 2 TODAY: 80GB, 160 GB (maybe 40GB in hapan )

6.No one has right to be arrogant EVER.

7.I never said game with good metacritic sells always good. Wii sports is ''revolutinary'' and its must-have game for every wii owner. That's why nintendo bundeld it.

8. First 2 sentences of 8th point made you lose even more creditbility. Anyway, when one console doesnt outsell another that means its failing? So by your logic 360 is also failing??? There are over usually over 120k PS3s sold every week so i really dont see how PS3 is failing its consumers when over 120k people are buying it every week.

Let me spin this around:If you were prefectly satisfied with your system, why aren't you playing it right now? I was actually playing my PS3 when you posted your last post.

And yes i am trying my console choice when somebódy attacked it. If someone said you have shitty car or TV, wouldnt you defend you purchase?

Every time I come back here, your arguments get worse and worse.In fact, I'm not going to comment if it's a poor or irrasonal argument.

3)Are you serious? I've this 1000 times. Sales are quantifiable. If you are asking this, then you shouldn't be argueing.

8)That guy wasn't kidding saying you don't know enough about customers. How about another graph hmm?

While it doesn't give the whole picture, it is trying to show how the systems sell. The 360 is below $250 and is still being beated by the Wii. If Sony has the same price, they would be in the same situation, but worse. For Sony's graph, shift the red life a little to the left (since PS3 sells less then the 360).

Face the fact and understand that consumers are not interested in the PS3. Nintendo is responsable for 90% of the growth in the industry in the last year. Not Sony. Sony is shrinking and blowing all their money away. As the graph shows, people are kinterested ion Wiis despite the price point. The PS3 is too expensive and doesn't have the consumer interest (thus why it has that curve).

You think I lose credability for saying Sony doesn't please consumers as a whole. One does not lose credability for making a claim unless that claim is impossible (this isn't). I would only lose credability if I was so off or had some kind of agenda. So, it is my idea as a whole that would lose me credability, not thje topic sentences.

The reason for my closing comments in the last thread is your a huge fanboy. Fryfat was crediable. You aren't. I have had to say things over and over again, but you did not get it. You STILL don't know why I use sales as an argument and try to make a counter arguments out of something you do get. These post have been really bad banter because of it.

That chart is meaningless unless you say where its from. But i DO believe consumers are more interested in Wii than in PS3. Mostly because its ''revolutinary'' and because of smaller price. But that doesnt mean PS3 is failing its users. I can give you research where it says people are more satisfied with the PS3 than with the Wii. So Sony's customers are more satisfied than Nintendo's cunsomers.

And saying '' that consumers are not interested in the PS3'' is retarted. Like i said before there are over 120k PEOPLE ACTUALLY BUYING IT EVERY WEEK!!! So when someone buys something that person is probably intetrested in it.

The graphs were made my myself. It is not the first one I've made. "But.....but....that means they aren't useable. They are credited." I'll tell you, I'm probably more knolwgable then a lot of people who write and talk about games (sadly). If you need me to explain it, I will.

You keep missing the point, or more so, ignoring it. Instead, you sit in a little cube saying "PS3 is great. Everyone loves PS3. People are more satisfied with the PS3," as you rock back and forth chanting it like a montra. Well, I'm here to open the box and show you a brighter world. Reality.

You say "People love PS3." i say "Consumers aren't intereted in the PS3." You say "But the system sells ~120K a week." I say, "Someone will always buy something. The consumers as a whole are moving to other systems." You say PS3 has a lot of good gaming coming, more then the other systems." I say "Not many people are interested in those games, but are interested in new ventures like WoW and Wii Sports." To say "consumers are not interested in PS3," is not retarded, it's fact. You are only quoting numbers, which means you excluded any kind of customers. Compair those sales to the other system. They are quite a bit lower. Look at the NPD sales, and you'll see they are declining. Look at the Wii. Those games are breaking records left and right. Look at the DS, and see all the software that is taking off on the system (it has taken attention away from console development). Look, even, at the PSP, as it has sold many new software titles, and did much better then expectations. The PS3 just isn't what consunmers are looking for. 120K, by itself, is arbetrary. Numbers must have some backing to mean something. 120K means the system isn't that great in the consumers mind.

Wanna know how I can prove consumers aren't happy with the PS3? One of the biggest sellers in gaming, or any industry, is word of mouth. It is powerful. I will more likely listen to my friends then to TV or reviews. With the Wii, it was sold on word of mouth. People told their friends how awesome Wii Sports was. So, people had to have a Wii. I assume the same happened with Wii Fit. The whole idea behind evergreen titles is other people push the game, telling their friends how awesome it is. The PS3 is getting that. People aren't shouting the glory of the PS3 from the heavens. They are for the Wii.

The Wii is sold based on Wii Sports. If Wii Fit was a bundled game, it would sell the system. People buy game systems for games. Even you do that. The core buy systems for the prospect of games (which is different as everyone else will buy it for the software available). I bought my Wii for the prospect Smash Bros would come out. You bought it for a game like MGS4 or KZ2. We don't buy them to have them. We buy them for the software. Show a system that was successful without key software titles.

Consumers are luke warm to the PS3. They don't want it. Thety don't need it. They dont see a reason to have it. Thus, it has the lowest sales, and those sales are on a gradual slope that can't be stopped. The fate of systems, more so the losing ones, is to hit a peak and then fall slowly, dieing quietly. The PS3 is destined for this path, and no price cut can save it. Consumers are becoming less and less interiged by the PS3, and they demand it less. They will look to systems like the DS and Wii for gaming both for their key titles and size of the library. The PS3 can not keep up as it has few key titles and a small library.