Haha. I can't recall seeing anything funnier on these forums.

You're prolonging an argument based on nothing. I'm not getting any substance out of you. This is over.

I'm using logic to talk about the innovation of Halo 3 an an individual title instead of using the innovation of Halo 1, but if you want to ignore such an argument I can certainly see why you would.

Halo 3 did change some things up, and has innovated to a point, but it can't fall back on the innovations of previous members of the series.

What huge innovations have MGS4, Killzone 2, Unchartered, etc brought to the table this generation?  Why do they deserve such high praise when they merely evolved ideas from earlier titles.  Thats the main point, Halo 3 was a perfect refinement of the gameplay of the earlier games while adding some small innovations to bring the package as a whole together.  Why do people insist that every great game must have new radical ideas, sure it's nice to see such games but for every new game with a great feature there are a bunch of turkeys with a silly gimmick that doesn't work (Army Of Two anyone?).

Halo 3 didn't need to bring too much innovation to the table, it just needed polishing, although a better SP campaign could have been put together if I'm honest.

The only reason the point of innovation is brought up is because it was stated that KZ2 was obviously more generic and less innovative than Halo 3, which is what I was arguing against. I never said and never meant that a great game has to innovate. Obviously they don't, but if your argument is that one title is better than another because of innovation then yes the title should innovate.

 I would tend to agree Killzone 2 was less innovative than Halo 3 but in defence of the stance you're taking it's hard to justofy the generic statement completely.  I would agree that in the same way Halo 3 seeks to be rather unique in it's gameplay you could indeed argue with Killzone 2 the control system that got people flapping actually is a definate move by the devs to give the game it's own feel.  I don't like Killzone 2 for either the controls or the narrow viewpoint but it's not deserving of being called generic really once you've played it.  On the innovation front, KZ2 doesn't stand head and shoulders out from other shooters and thats why it gets criticism as it's perfectly polished with few risks taken to innovate (you could argue they didn't need to).

by my record, torilliam has stage in a bit of a corner. the gauntlet of innovation was thrown down by kz detractors, so discussion of it is definitely fair game.

the nail in the coffin for me is that there are significant leaps from kz to kz2, and i don't just mean the framerate. in every way kz2 is more evolved. no one is saying that of halo3 over halo2.

The first Killzone was average at best, Halo 2 wasn't.  One of these franchises needed a lot of innovation or it was dead the other didn't need to reinvent itself.

@Torillian

Here you go

-Saved Films
  Halo 3 was the first console fps game to record every game you played and allowed you to replay that game and view it from every angle

- Forge
  A functioning console fps map editor that allows players to play in the game while the editor is still making the map allowing for instant play-testing of maps as well as unique game types based around having monitors on the team. With the creation of foundry and sandbox forge has transformed into a truly formidable editor.

- Screenshots
 Taking screen shots in Halo 3 has become an art creating a whole subculture of Halo 3 players that spend hours in forge setting up the scenery for the perfect shot

- Campaign Skulls
 Hidden throughout Halo 3 are hidden skulls that when activated change the very physics and dynamics of the game. Turning these skulls on and enabling ffa scoring in 4 player co-op creates a completely new meta-game within the campaign its self as players attempt to get the highest score. (on a side note only 2 people have ever beat Halo 3 on Legendary with all skulls on)

-Integration with Bungie.net
 Bungie.net automatically uploads all your games to their database including the most minute of details. Also every screenshot taken is uploaded and soon with the next update to the website games saved in Halo 3 can be directly viewed form the PC

-Weekly Playlist updates
  Every week Bungie updates the available playlists even having specific holiday themed playlists. Having created the matchmaking system in Halo 2 Bungie has evolved matchmaking into an amazingly interactive system giving players incentives to come back for more with unique ideas like double xp weekend and prize based playlists for the best players.

- Massive and Robust custom game options
  This is the biggest asset of Halo 3 although arguably not a direct innovation. Bungie's foresight for including the ability to change even the most minuscule aspects of the games has created every game-type from zombies and rocket race to griffball.


If you would like you could make a list of innovations Killzone 2 made

Forge and Saved Films are innovations even if they existed already, but I have a tough time with pretty much all the other additions. All of the rest have already existed and been done with other games, but it is innovative to put all of these things into a single game and really put it all together. This goes more for the general quality of the game than innovation.