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Forums - General Discussion - I am a liberal and I'm proud

Broncos724 on 08 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
you really dont understand what im saying, not everyone is a workaholic who wants a job that pays 100k a year, many, many people want a job that pays a decent living wage and that they enjoy, working hard does not allways reap rewards, some people just arent as good as others at doing certain things, youre assuming all humans are the same, which is utter bullshit, we are all individuals, why should i be forced to pay for my healthcare and education just becuase i didnt get a job that pays me as much as yours, maybe i want a job thats right for me?

 

If someone is not a workaholic then they better be ok with not making as much money as they would otherwise.  Nobody is forcing poor people to be poor.  Life isn't fair, true, but the more effort you put into bettering your social class, the better you're gonna live.

The whole mindset of "the government will provide for me" will likely lead the US to ruin, eventually.  It makes people lazy and unwilling to work harder and be more economically productive when the government gives them something for doing nothing.  This was a big reason why the Roman Empire collapsed.  Also this past century we saw it happen with the Soviet Union.  Socialism just has no long-term sustainability, sorry.



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TheRealMafoo on 08 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:

now, in my opinion, Rights are the basic things all humans need to enjoy a good standard of life.

 

So by your definition, what's a right is what all humans need to enjoy a good standard of life. Not some, but all.

I don't need government run healthcare to enjoy a good standard of life. Hell, so far I have not needed any. Thus by your standard, it's not a right.

Thousands of people live very happy lives, with good standards of living around the world with no formal education. Thus by your standard, it's not a right.

Like I have said before... your views on this subject are so radical, you're a party of one, and frankly, I grow tired of arguing with you.



Broncos724 on 08 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
by your logic we have no rights as everything can be taken away, by death

so you have NO right to earn any money, you have NO right to live, you have NO right to speak to anyone else, you have NO rights

you really want to say that Rights must be inalienable?



now, in my opinion, Rights are the basic things all humans need to enjoy a good standard of life, to get a the job they want and to live in good health, imo we should strive towards making sure everyone has these rights, no matter what there race, nationality or gender.

 

I agree with your aspirations in the last paragraph.  Unfortunately the utopia that you (and everyone) wants to live in is fantasy and simply cannot happen.  So however a society is set up there will be a lower, middle, and upper class.  It's just how it is.  With that being said, I think small government, free market countries have shown that their lower classes live a lot, LOT better than the lower classes of a socialistic society.



SciFiBoy on 08 April 2009
Broncos724 said:
SciFiBoy said:
by your logic we have no rights as everything can be taken away, by death

so you have NO right to earn any money, you have NO right to live, you have NO right to speak to anyone else, you have NO rights

you really want to say that Rights must be inalienable?



now, in my opinion, Rights are the basic things all humans need to enjoy a good standard of life, to get a the job they want and to live in good health, imo we should strive towards making sure everyone has these rights, no matter what there race, nationality or gender.

 

I agree with your aspirations in the last paragraph.  Unfortunately the utopia that you (and everyone) wants to live in is fantasy and simply cannot happen.  So however a society is set up there will be a lower, middle, and upper class.  It's just how it is.  With that being said, I think small government, free market countries have shown that their lower classes live a lot, LOT better than the lower classes of a socialistic society.

 

well done for ignoring what ive been saying all through the thread, im a Liberal Socialist, not an Authoritarian Socialist, there is a very big difference



TheRealMafoo on 08 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
Broncos724 said:
SciFiBoy said:
by your logic we have no rights as everything can be taken away, by death

so you have NO right to earn any money, you have NO right to live, you have NO right to speak to anyone else, you have NO rights

you really want to say that Rights must be inalienable?



now, in my opinion, Rights are the basic things all humans need to enjoy a good standard of life, to get a the job they want and to live in good health, imo we should strive towards making sure everyone has these rights, no matter what there race, nationality or gender.

 

I agree with your aspirations in the last paragraph. Unfortunately the utopia that you (and everyone) wants to live in is fantasy and simply cannot happen. So however a society is set up there will be a lower, middle, and upper class. It's just how it is. With that being said, I think small government, free market countries have shown that their lower classes live a lot, LOT better than the lower classes of a socialistic society.

 

well done for ignoring what ive been saying all through the thread, im a Liberal Socialist, not an Authoritarian Socialist, there is a very big difference

 

No, you want to base a life on Star Trek.

In Star Trek, everyone works. There is no such thing as welfare. Good luck making a country where everyone will contribute in some fashion.

In the Next Generation, Picard became captain, because someone at the academy and star fleet determined he was better then everyone else. Due to that choice, he lives with a much higher standard of living then the rest of the crew. He gets the best quarters, and gets to dictate how his life will go, what locations they get to visit, who can take leave, and so on.

he lives like a king, when the rest live like the servants that they are, and no one gets a choice in the matter. There is no money. You do your part, and you get what the government thinks you deserve. Some get to travel the galaxy, and some clean shit off of toilet seats. The choice is not yours, you can "try out" for jobs, but in the end, your told what job you will get.

Thats no world I want to live in.



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SciFiBoy on 08 April 2009

in Star Trek, everyone has healthcare and education, everyone has a good standard of living, everyone has all the food they need, everyone gets the same rights, racism, greed and bigotry dont exist anymore, how is that a bad world?

what youre saying is nonsense, Picard gets the best quarters because hes the capitan, yes, but the others arent treated like slaves, other than his quarters, he doesnt get any more than them. No-one was forced to do anything on the Enterprise, they all choose to join and help out and they all seem happy enough to me



makingmusic476 on 08 April 2009
The_vagabond7 said:
I'm more of a fiscal conservative, mixed with social liberal. I agree with most of the things you say, but you don't really touch on many economic issues other than legalize certain things such as drugs, which I think would be good for the market, great for the government budget, and probably wouldn't be too bad for society. I mean how many people that don't do drugs only avoid them because it's illegal? I don't do crystal meth, heroine, cocaine ect ect and that wouldn't change if suddenly I could buy them legally.

I think the government should have minimal influence on business (though their should definitely still be regulation, absolute free market economy is ridiculous. There needs to be boundries but very distant hardly noticeable boundries), I think that alot of government programs such as welfare are wasteful and are in need of serious reform. But I don't think the free market is an amazing, tried and true flawless thing that will always lead the way towards the betterment of society, because it will fundementally always work towards it's own interest and when it gets too powerful it's interest trumps the needs of society to the detriment of society and business (such as our current health insurance model that is a burden to businesses, families, and hospitals). But I do think free markets allow for incredible ingenuity, competition, and the ability for people to see good for their hard work and should be allowed to flourish, but not for individual companies to dominate nations.

Socially I think live and let live. A person's right to swing his fist ends where my nose begins, but he has every right to swing his fist away from my nose. If gays want to be married, why stop them? If people want to practice a religion based on space aliens and telekinetic powers, who should tell them not to? I believe in pragmatism and science not ideology and faith. I would never tell somebody to abandon their faith, but their right to faith ends where another person's right to practice their beliefs begin.

I am not affiliated with any party, because I see identifying oneself with a vast group as a form of blind ideology. I will not vote for somebody I disagree with just because he has a particular label, and likewise I will not shy away voting for someone because they have an unpopular label. Ideas and actions matter, not blanket ideologies spread over a group.

 

I basically agree with this (though I am a religious man).



makingmusic476 on 08 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Domo-Kun said:

I still haven't seen any evidence or clear examples that liberals suppress the rights of anybody.

 

Did you not read my post?

If you mean the percentage of liberals that don’t think government should give entitlements, then you’re right. We call them Libertarians.

The government owns nothing. To give someone something, first the government has to take it from someone else.

How is taking something of mine for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else not an infringement of my rights?

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

If I were a rich man, I'd be all about sharing some of my wealth to help out those around me.  However, I would be the one sharing my wealth.  I would be (and am) 100% against the government FORCING me to share my wealth.  If I were to give my money away, I would be doing it of my own accord.

"you give up some of your income"

No.  You are not "giv[ing] up" your income.  It is being taken away.  If you want to give it up, then by all means do so.



Tyrannical on 08 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
in Star Trek, everyone has healthcare and education, everyone has a good standard of living, everyone has all the food they need, everyone gets the same rights, racism, greed and bigotry dont exist anymore, how is that a bad world?

what youre saying is nonsense, Picard gets the best quarters because hes the capitan, yes, but the others arent treated like slaves, other than his quarters, he doesnt get any more than them. No-one was forced to do anything on the Enterprise, they all choose to join and help out and they all seem happy enough to me

 

FantasyLandBoy would be a better name. Trying to base life off of a TV show.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

SciFiBoy on 08 April 2009

urgh, i have better things to do, none of you even remotley dented my views, but im off, ive had enough of this thread for now