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Forums - General Discussion - I am a liberal and I'm proud

TheRealMafoo on 07 April 2009
Domo-Kun said:

I still haven't seen any evidence or clear examples that liberals suppress the rights of anybody.

 

Did you not read my post?

If you mean the percentage of liberals that don’t think government should give entitlements, then you’re right. We call them Libertarians.

The government owns nothing. To give someone something, first the government has to take it from someone else.

How is taking something of mine for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else not an infringement of my rights?



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SciFiBoy on 07 April 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Domo-Kun said:

I still haven't seen any evidence or clear examples that liberals suppress the rights of anybody.

 

Did you not read my post?

If you mean the percentage of liberals that don’t think government should give entitlements, then you’re right. We call them Libertarians.

The government owns nothing. To give someone something, first the government has to take it from someone else.

How is taking something of mine for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else not an infringement of my rights?

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.



TheRealMafoo on 07 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Domo-Kun said:

I still haven't seen any evidence or clear examples that liberals suppress the rights of anybody.

 

Did you not read my post?

If you mean the percentage of liberals that don’t think government should give entitlements, then you’re right. We call them Libertarians.

The government owns nothing. To give someone something, first the government has to take it from someone else.

How is taking something of mine for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else not an infringement of my rights?

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

No, poor people, thanks to having the same rights as rich people, have the opportunity to earn an income that affords them a better standard of living.

Of course in your world there would be no rich people to pay for the poor, as you think no one should make more then 100k, so why are you arguing with me?

I was poor, and now I am not. I got here by taking advantage of my rights, not by just taking.

 



The_vagabond7 on 07 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Domo-Kun said:

I still haven't seen any evidence or clear examples that liberals suppress the rights of anybody.

 

Did you not read my post?

If you mean the percentage of liberals that don’t think government should give entitlements, then you’re right. We call them Libertarians.

The government owns nothing. To give someone something, first the government has to take it from someone else.

How is taking something of mine for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else not an infringement of my rights?

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

 

That's not really a response to his question. You may think he should be more charitable, but that wasn't what he asked. How is the government taking something from him, and giving it to some one else not an infringement of his rights? Not "Should ethically he be more willing to help more people get an education" or "Does taking it from him and giving it to some one else for an education better for the country as a whole", those aren't topics he was discussing.



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Galaki on 07 April 2009
highwaystar101 said:

I'm a bit sick of feeling like I'm always in the wrong for my political views. Well, I just want to say I am proud to be liberal.

I am an atheist, I am pro-choice, I think pre-marital sex is acceptable, I think war should be used only in extreme circumstances, I support gay marriage, I think all people from all races, creeds and backgrounds deserve equal rights, I support better gun control, I enjoy the occasional drink, I read the guardian, I like Obama, I think prostitution would benefit for being legalised, the same for some of the less harmful drugs, I support the freedom of speech, I like renewable energy and I think it should be supported... and I'm proud.

Just because I support these things doesn't mean I don't have any morals, or I don't have good intentions. I'm a generally nice guy, people always enjoy being around me and I am an extremely hard working student (some may say a nerd).

Just because some of my views are a little liberal/controversial doesn't mean I'm a backwards thinking person. I know sometimes I get a bit angry and heated, but usually something has to really annoy me first to set me off. I am sorry for when that happens.

 

Pretty much same view. I'd like the government to stay the **** out of a lot of parenting issues. Let parents to their job and stop trying to raise our kids your way.



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TheRealMafoo on 07 April 2009
The_vagabond7 said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Domo-Kun said:

I still haven't seen any evidence or clear examples that liberals suppress the rights of anybody.

 

Did you not read my post?

If you mean the percentage of liberals that don’t think government should give entitlements, then you’re right. We call them Libertarians.

The government owns nothing. To give someone something, first the government has to take it from someone else.

How is taking something of mine for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else not an infringement of my rights?

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

 

That's not really a response to his question. You may think he should be more charitable, but that wasn't what he asked. How is the government taking something from him, and giving it to some one else not an infringement of his rights? Not "Should ethically he be more willing to help more people get an education" or "Does taking it from him and giving it to some one else for an education better for the country as a whole", those aren't topics he was discussing.

 

Yea, what he said. :)



SciFiBoy on 07 April 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

No, poor people, thanks to having the same rights as rich people, have the opportunity to earn an income that affords them a better standard of living. the average wage in the UK is 22k a year, no wear near enough to pay for private healthcare and education

Of course in your world there would be no rich people to pay for the poor, as you think no one should make more then 100k, so why are you arguing with me? humanitys ultimate goal should be Utopia imo, see: Earth in Star Trek

I was poor, and now I am not. I got here by taking advantage of my rights, not by just taking. Wrong, you are LUCKY enough that people are willing to pay you enough that you can afford private healthcare and education

 

 



donathos on 07 April 2009

This probably won't come out like I intend it to.  In fact, I'd probably be well-advised not to write anything at all.  But I'm not a smart man, so...

I think pride is a wonderful, healthy thing.  However, I think it's important to take pride in the right things.  Take pride in doing your best to be a good person.  Take pride in trying to be a blessing to those around you; a benefit to the world.  Take pride in trying to have an open mind, in doing your best to attain knowledge and understanding.

I am sure that all of these things are true about you, and you should justly take pride in them.

But I don't recommend taking pride in "being a liberal," just as I don't take particular pride in any of the specific beliefs I have.  Being a liberal doesn't make a person a good person.  And, should you ever decide that any part of your political/philosophical beliefs are wrong, you'll need to be able to cast them off without doing harm to your self-image.  Instead, you should have pride in that part of you that could reject your liberalism, if you ever found that you had been mistaken--your intellecutal honesty.  If your pride is about your liberalism, instead, you might find doing such a thing impossible...

Maybe what you're really saying is that you aren't afraid to speak your mind, or admit what you really think about things, despite the possible censure of others.  And that is something to be proud of.  But such courage doesn't have anything to do with the specific contents of your beliefs.



donathos on 07 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

No, poor people, thanks to having the same rights as rich people, have the opportunity to earn an income that affords them a better standard of living. the average wage in the UK is 22k a year, no wear near enough to pay for private healthcare and education

Of course in your world there would be no rich people to pay for the poor, as you think no one should make more then 100k, so why are you arguing with me? humanitys ultimate goal should be Utopia imo, see: Earth in Star Trek

I was poor, and now I am not. I got here by taking advantage of my rights, not by just taking. Wrong, you are LUCKY enough that people are willing to pay you enough that you can afford private healthcare and education

 

I understand wanting the world to be a perfect place--Utopia.  I'd like that, too.

However, I think we have to be very careful when it comes to achieving it by taking people's rights away and/or making them do the things you think they should do.

It seems to me, according to my limited knowledge of history, that people have tried this a few times now, and it hasn't quite worked out like we've wanted...

 



Rath on 07 April 2009
The_vagabond7 said:
SciFiBoy said:

so, poor people should be denied basic rights because rich people are greedy and wont give them any help?

you give up some of your income (a more than fair amount if you live in the UK or US, id argue that the rich in both nations are awfully undertaxed) in order to give thoose less fortunate than you the same rights you enjoy, like education or healthcare.

 

That's not really a response to his question. You may think he should be more charitable, but that wasn't what he asked. How is the government taking something from him, and giving it to some one else not an infringement of his rights? Not "Should ethically he be more willing to help more people get an education" or "Does taking it from him and giving it to some one else for an education better for the country as a whole", those aren't topics he was discussing.

I would say that it is an infringment of his financial rights, however its one thats needed in order for others to not have their rights infringed.

I consider that in the modern world everybody has a right to education, healthcare and the necessities of life. In order for that to happen taxes are necessary.

Its impossible to live in a Utopian world where no rights of anybody are infringed, its the governments job to get as close as possible.