I'm going to finish this here because we quite clearly disagree on the core element, as opinioned in your final sentance - In short, I don't believe that games are yet in the same league as books and films as an artistic medium to convey a story.

I do believe they can, and that they will be, but I would argue they're not there yet.  The narrative devices, confidence and maturity displayed so far in 99.9% of videogames is simply not at that level yet.

I've given reasons - you've shown anger but presented few true arguements in return that I've seen.  In truth, your statements comprise of little more than shouting 'yes they are' very loudly.

As for this:

Lets pretend you're good at x, or at least think you're good at x. Well I tell you that you suck at and I have no reason to ever believe you will be good at x because you are not as good as the best.

That's not my point at all.  It's this.

You and many others are good at Y.  As part of Y you are evolving to be good at Z.  You are currently not great at Z compared to the very real alternatives, based on the evidence presented in Y (Y being a great videogame and Z being a great narrative and theme).

But look, I'm on your side really, because I want to see that progression.  But I'm not going to pretent it's there yet.  I simply have to watch a good film or read a good book - not the best mind you, just decent, to see that at their best videogames are still far below the average capabilities of those mediums and are apeing their most basic techniques in a relatively faltering way.

Still, I'll keep playing and see what each new title brings to the table in this regard.

Shadow of the Colossus' ending.

It is not only a great _narrative_ ending. It is perfect in the way it is a great _game narrative_ ending. It stands up there with great works of art.

I'm going to go with Super Mario World when I was 8 years old. At the time it was truly beautiful. If it were to have come out last week I probably wouldn't have cared though. Just the kiss from the princess, the credits rolling with the rogues gallery in tow and all the Yoshis partying with Mario at the end. Awesome, awesome ending, and no I'm not kidding.

To get a few words into the "Are videogames a good storytelling medium?" I just wanted to add that I feel no matter how good games get at it, they will always be hindered by the fact that they need to be played. It limits the range of stories that can be told. Sure you can get a Lord of the Rings or Star Wars like story out of a videogame because you can play the action. However how do you create something along the lines of About Schmidt or Adaptation in a game? It's hard to create a small personal drama without a large portion revolving around violence and physical conflict. It's also difficult to create a story with that takes place in our world in a realistic setting that has no sci fi or fantasy elements in it. That I feel will in many ways be the problem with getting storytelling out of games. Books, TV and films don't have that issue. They can create stories out of anything.

You know, you've just nicely put something I was personally trying too hard to convey about videogames as a medium.  Thanks.

I agree 100%.

I would have to go with FFX.

I'm going to have to go with Braid. The final part of that game is the most brilliant ending I have seen in any game. It still gives me goosebumps thinking about it.

Well, Reasonable, what I said still stands.

And.... as to the ability to tell smaller, more personal stories? That's not really true either. Nobody's really hit on the magic number for it, yet, but dating sims are big in Japan and games like Harvest Moon show that it is possible.

I liked your points to be sure, and while I think we see games at different levels of progression I think we both enjoy seeing certain designers taking increasingly more confident strides with narrative.

I think the crux is that it is possible, but no one is really reliably doing it yet. As a final word on the topic, here are the titles that I've been by far the most impressed with so far (I'm sure there are others but there's just no time/budget to play everything!):

1) Ico - a simple tale in many regards, it shows a concrete vision and superior level of execution of its theme. I was particularly impressed with the simple elegance of the small, but very effective, cutscenes. These showed a bit of a reliance on non-interactive storytelling but were really nicely done. From an interactive point of view the use of the castle as a character, the puzzles and the general atmosphere was fantastic. Of particular note is the use of Yorda and the mechanic of holding hands. When all is said and done it comes together wonderfully at the end and delivers a suprisingly moving emotional punch. In their animation and what they do Ico and Yorda are nicely distinctive characters. Oh, if only more videogames could mix such elegant use of gaming mechanics and narrative devices

2) SOTC - much the same as Ico above so I'll just note that the title showed progression in depth of theme and the use of setting and atmosphere, as well as building to an even more satisfying conlcusion, however the chosen story did result in less affecting characters and certainly Wander does not make the same impression as a character as Ico and Yorda did. So two steps forward one back, but a fantastic game, and again great use of interaction and familiar themes.

3) Deus Ex - sure the levels were a bit ugly, sure the voice overs wobbled here and there (well, most everywhere to be honest), sure the combat was a little clunky - but the ambition, the interaction and subtly changing story points. The real sense of moral ambiguity (something very rare in videogames and normaly presented in the trite manner of Fallout 3 or marginally better as in Bioshock) and depth of setting. It seemed hell bent on sqeezing in every conspiracy angle from Area 51 to The Illuminati but it was globe trotting, showed a clear narrative structure (apart from the weak 4 endings bit) and contained more ambition than 10 individual games at once. Will we ever see its like again? I hope so, particularly as they're preping number 3, but number 2 has left me cautious that videogames in general have retreated from the potential Deus Ex showed (damn those low sales).

4) Grim Fandango - it probably seems quaint now as a game, with its puzzles and lack of combat, but it still has a fantastic narrative, probably the best characters in a game ever IMHO thanks to perhaps some of the best and most consistent voice work I've heard in a game ever, and when they take that final train at the end for a few previous moments I believed they really were going to a better place. Some people have films and books they always return to - this remains the only game I will return to every few years just to remember how mature, fun and expressive a videogame can be in the right hands. Why aren't there more Film Noir hommage titles set in the Land of the Dead?

5) Silent Hill 2 - sure the controls are clunky, that's part of what makes it work, sure the voice overs (English anyway) are some of the worst ever, but the psychological depth it shows, the confident use of design and setting to bring to life one, very real, very human man's inner hell to life is second to none IMHO. Everything in the game is bent to the narrative, everything. SH1 showed the promise, 3, 4 & now 5 have squandered it to an extent. But here, you were playing a game, but the game itself was subservient to the story and the character. How rare is that? The revelations, although clear enough if you're paying attention, take genuine risks (SPOILER WARNING - Few games really ask you to contemplate that, for a very mixed and conflicting set of reasons, your character killed their wife, possibly as a mercy killing, possibly to end their own life of misery chained to a dying person, possibly both.) Number 3 was fun but a by the numbers replay of number 1 with some cues from 2 thrown in. 4 got back to some of what made 2 the best, but suffered from confused game mechanics (probably because the game started as a new IP and was bent to fit Silent Hill series instead) while 5 is what I feared, a remake by a Western company who can copy but not create.

zelda ocarina of time