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Forums - Gaming Discussion - One of Spores developers says "Wii is a piece of..."

windbane on 08 March 2007

Oh, and saying something doesn't appeal to you is completely different from saying it can not produce art. If you don't like the Wii, ok. Lot's of people disagree on what kind of art they like. We're all different.



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Erik Aston on 08 March 2007

Saying PS3 and 360 are helping "art" but Wii is not is like saying Classical music is "art", but Rock'n'Roll is not, or that "Pulp Fiction" is art, but "Shrek" is not. People who say things like that are elitists, or have been influenced by elitists to have narrow definitions of "art." Art can have many goals--it can intend to illicit many different responces--and videogames, due to the fact that there is an interactive element, can do more different things than most art forms. And the status of something as "art" deals neither with the type of responce it is trying to create, nor with the quality of the project itself. Any entertainment which follows an artistic process is most certainly part of art. The final acceptance of videogames as art rests solely on history, as when there is a generation which has grown up with videogames resting alongside film and music as a pillar of popular culture, people will think it is absurd not to consider videogames art. And people who try and say that Wii is not pushing "art" are basically saying they don't think ALL videogames are art, which should be the stance of any self-respecting gamer. Some of the greatest artistic leaps videogames have ever taken include Pong, Space Invaders, Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros., Tetris, the Sims and (gasp!) Wii Sports. Its not just games of the PlayStation era, designed with storytelling; sandbox worlds; or immersive, atmospheric and escapist graphics and music in mind that are "art." I mean, realistic simulation games sometimes reflect the same goals of realist paintings, puzzle games and arcade games often focus on the abstract and surreal, many PS-era games look to film for inspiration, and platformers often rely on traditional aesthetics of 2D art to guide the player's eye through the level. Games like Pong and Wii Sports look to create a sense of togetherness and squash the generation gap, which is a noble artistic goal in and of itself.



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mancandy on 08 March 2007

sieanr said: mancandy said:What do you think people did for entertainment back when Michelangelo was alive? Watch TV? No, they looked at paintings and sculptures. Not really. During Michelangelo's time most paintings/sculpture was either religious or private commissions that would never be seen by the public. People entertained themselves with plays, drinking, music and other things people still do today, "art" was something most people didn't care about. Average people would only see art in a religious context, in which case it was meant to inspire and direct people in their everyday life - not entertainment. Those who did commission art, like the Medici family, did so for private churches, status symbols and occasionally entertainment(but there was allot more to it than that) Ferrel or Cruise are not artist but entertainers, just like playwrights of the past or pulp writers of the 50's. There is allot more, and I mean allot, that goes into creating art than just some piece of entertainment and you fail to recognize the difference.
You make it sound like that average people are incapable of making "art". However, people during the renaissance did have a an appreciation for art. Art was displayed in public places. Michelangelo was a famous artists, not all artists are famous. Not all art sit in the Louvre. When you talk about "non-average" people, I assume you are referring to the rich. Not everyone was rich.
Ferrel or Cruise are not artist but entertainers, just like playwrights of the past or pulp writers of the 50's. There is allot more, and I mean allot, that goes into creating art than just some piece of entertainment and you fail to recognize the difference.
I see what you are saying, I just want to elaborate on your comment. Ferrel and Cruise are actors, a type of entertainer, hence not artists. So movies are not art, just forms of entertainment. Playwrights, like Shakespeare, are not artists, merely writers and writers are just another from of entertainers. So I will assume all writers are not artists. The plays that resulted from the playwright's work are not art as well since they are forms of entertainment. Also the characters in the plays are not artists since they are just actors. Musicians, opera singers, ballet dancers, etc are entertainers, so they are not artists either. I think I see the difference. Shouldn't you be upset that Hecker is trying to incorporate art into videogames since videogames are merely a form of entertainment? Afterall,
Entertainment and art are two very different things.
and based on this, the two cannot coexist. Isn't he just wasting his time?



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mancandy on 08 March 2007

Erik Aston said: Saying PS3 and 360 are helping "art" but Wii is not is like saying Classical music is "art", but Rock'n'Roll is not, or that "Pulp Fiction" is art, but "Shrek" is not. People who say things like that are elitists, or have been influenced by elitists to have narrow definitions of "art." Art can have many goals--it can intend to illicit many different responces--and videogames, due to the fact that there is an interactive element, can do more different things than most art forms. And the status of something as "art" deals neither with the type of responce it is trying to create, nor with the quality of the project itself. Any entertainment which follows an artistic process is most certainly part of art.
Thanks for spelling that out for me. I didn't want to catogorize people. But I picture Hecker to be like a movie snob. He'll watch the independent or foreign films, but then turn his nose when Will Ferrell is playing.



Wii Code 8761-5941-4718-0078 

auroragb on 08 March 2007

stewacide said: AI is the *serious* laggard in game design, because nobody has figured out a technique for having improvements compound (as they have with graphics in a major way, and physics to some extent).
Totally agree, this guy doesn't understand the difference of being able to render 500 characters on screen (job of GPU) vs keeping state and resolving action of 500 characters (CPU). Keeping/processing state on 500 element vectors in real time are rather trivial tasks that even a 386 can do. If that is all that's required, the Wii CPU will hardly be tasked This guy is clearly a tool trotted out by their company to explain why they dropped the ball in terms of Wii support. An honest answer was that NO mainstream 3rd party dev thought it might be successful. But now, instead of owning up, they are just calling Wii another gamecube because that's what they want it to be, a distant 3rd place console that the 3rd party devs won't touch. Instead, Wii is the hottest console of the current gen and 3rd parties are falling over themselves figuring out how to support it. They are saying these things to put other 3rd parties off, so that they'll have a clear playing field when they do their releases. But, I suspect that about 8-10 months from now, there will be a sudden gaggle of games released for the Wii because 3rd parties have just started their ports and dev now At the end of the day, publishers want there to be as few platforms as possible. So that they can dev once and reach 100% of the market and maximize return @kwaad, I don't understand why you brought out def of Next Gen. Wii easily satisfies the literal definitions you posed...



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Yulegoat on 08 March 2007

I'd say Okami is artistically the best game ever, so claiming that Wii doesn't have enough power for artistically serious games is just silly.



Stromprophet on 08 March 2007

windbane said: Yes, we all understand the graphics and certain capabilities will not be as great. However, to say the same game will be made over and over is not true. Look at the current games out right now, there is a lot of variety already. As for FPSs...geez, is that all there is now? FPS and GTA? Sure, if that's all you want then the other 2 consoles will be better but the Wii will have gameplay that neither of the other 2 consoles have, and in different ways will have the same potential for artistic expression. The main argument here is art, and whether the Wii can do something artistic. Of course it can. And death2009...I am not arrogant in saying that someone is an idiot if they don't understand that Art does not require high-powered computer parts. I may be harsh, but I'm right. I'm pretty sure we've (as in the human race) have managed to produce art without computers for a few thousand years, at least.
You miss some of the points. I'm not only talking about graphics, but also physics and AI programming. For instance, what about a game like Elder Scrolls? Could the Wii do those really large environments? In Elder Scrolls they don't map the forests for instance, the forests are actually living and changing forests controlled by an AI so they are not mapped by the CPU but are actually part of the world. My point is beyond FPS, also MMORPGs, RPGs, Racing games, Sports Games. All of which are using more advanced physics all the time. Speaking of which, why don't you look at this release list. http://wii.ign.com/index/release.html Notice that a ton of these games are being released to the virtual console. And also notice the list. If you look at 360 and PS3 you will notice that both have much longer lists than the Wii. What happened to all that supposed new 3rd party support? Super Paper Mario Mario Party 8 Pokemon Battle Revolution Super Smash Bros. Brawl Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Fire Emblem Dr. Mario Excite Bike Starfox 64 Kirbys Dreamland 3 SuperMetroid Kirby Super Star Super Mario RPG Metroid Prime 3 Super Mario Galaxy Animal Crossing DK Bongo Blast Is what I saw on that list, I think I'll pass....



BenKenobi88 on 08 March 2007

The "supposed" new 3rd party support is here...they've only just started making games. Nobody thought the Wii would do so well...so there aren't many good games right now. There will be...



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Stromprophet on 08 March 2007

auroragb said: stewacide said: AI is the *serious* laggard in game design, because nobody has figured out a technique for having improvements compound (as they have with graphics in a major way, and physics to some extent).Totally agree, this guy doesn't understand the difference of being able to render 500 characters on screen (job of GPU) vs keeping state and resolving action of 500 characters (CPU). Keeping/processing state on 500 element vectors in real time are rather trivial tasks that even a 386 can do. If that is all that's required, the Wii CPU will hardly be tasked This guy is clearly a tool trotted out by their company to explain why they dropped the ball in terms of Wii support. An honest answer was that NO mainstream 3rd party dev thought it might be successful. But now, instead of owning up, they are just calling Wii another gamecube because that's what they want it to be, a distant 3rd place console that the 3rd party devs won't touch. Instead, Wii is the hottest console of the current gen and 3rd parties are falling over themselves figuring out how to support it. They are saying these things to put other 3rd parties off, so that they'll have a clear playing field when they do their releases. But, I suspect that about 8-10 months from now, there will be a sudden gaggle of games released for the Wii because 3rd parties have just started their ports and dev now At the end of the day, publishers want there to be as few platforms as possible. So that they can dev once and reach 100% of the market and maximize return @kwaad, I don't understand why you brought out def of Next Gen. Wii easily satisfies the literal definitions you posed...
Depending on your system this is changing. Both the 360 and PS3 are using other parts of their CPUs to compliment processing that used to be done by the GPU. Despite what you think the GPU is responsible for some rather meaningless calculations which inherently limits its ability to focus on simply rendering objects. That's part of the reason the PS3 is designed the way it is it's SPEs are capable of doing a ton of calculations and can lift off some of the work both the GPU and CPU have to do that is repetitive and takes away from the heavier lifting they should be doing. As I said in the post before this, look at the release list yourself. *If* 3rd parties were now supporting it much more as you say that list would be much longer already and it is not. Also 8-10 months is a rather short development time, do you want crappy games or something? The only thing Wii has that contributes to next gen gaming is motion control. In every other way it is quite plain. If you look at some of the best games like Twilight Princess, it's easy to see how with a stronger CPU and better GPU the game could have been more complex, better graphically, and had much larger levels than it did.



HappySqurriel on 08 March 2007

windbane said: Yes, we all understand the graphics and certain capabilities will not be as great. However, to say the same game will be made over and over is not true. Look at the current games out right now, there is a lot of variety already. As for FPSs...geez, is that all there is now? FPS and GTA? Sure, if that's all you want then the other 2 consoles will be better but the Wii will have gameplay that neither of the other 2 consoles have, and in different ways will have the same potential for artistic expression. The main argument here is art, and whether the Wii can do something artistic. Of course it can. And death2009...I am not arrogant in saying that someone is an idiot if they don't understand that Art does not require high-powered computer parts. I may be harsh, but I'm right. I'm pretty sure we've (as in the human race) have managed to produce art without computers for a few thousand years, at least. Stromprophet said: You miss some of the points. I'm not only talking about graphics, but also physics and AI programming. For instance, what about a game like Elder Scrolls? Could the Wii do those really large environments? In Elder Scrolls they don't map the forests for instance, the forests are actually living and changing forests controlled by an AI so they are not mapped by the CPU but are actually part of the world. My point is beyond FPS, also MMORPGs, RPGs, Racing games, Sports Games. All of which are using more advanced physics all the time. Speaking of which, why don't you look at this release list. http://wii.ign.com/index/release.html Notice that a ton of these games are being released to the virtual console. And also notice the list. If you look at 360 and PS3 you will notice that both have much longer lists than the Wii. What happened to all that supposed new 3rd party support? Super Paper Mario Mario Party 8 Pokemon Battle Revolution Super Smash Bros. Brawl Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Fire Emblem Dr. Mario Excite Bike Starfox 64 Kirbys Dreamland 3 SuperMetroid Kirby Super Star Super Mario RPG Metroid Prime 3 Super Mario Galaxy Animal Crossing DK Bongo Blast Is what I saw on that list, I think I'll pass....
You do realize that it takes longer than a couple of weeks to produce a videogame, right? You also realize that E3 is only a couple of months away and most third parties will hold off any major announcments until then, right? Essentially, since last E3 we've constanly heard that developers were increasing support for the Wii (usually at the expense of PS3 and XBox 360 development) so most of the initial increase in support should show up between Q3 of 2007 and Q2 of 2008 ...