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Forums - Sony - Killzone- bad guys have more appeal!?!

Kantor said:
mibuokami said:
Kantor said:

That's different. That's evolution. Changes in skin colour and the like. Minor changes.

If an African, Mongolian or Aborigine was unable to breathe without a helmet, yes, I would call them a mutant.

You realize the only reason they have the helmet is as a symbol right? The Helghast helmet was orignally only worn by working class because the smelting process is toxic. There is a reason why the average life expectancy of the original colonist was less than 30. By the third generation, the Helghast were already adapting, the lunge that they were born with could withstand the toxic atmosphere far better than their the first generation colonist, again evolution.

Visari encourage people to wear the helmet because it act as a symbol of the struggle the Helghan went through to survive. They do not need to wear the helmet to breath, Visari needed the helmet to give the Helghast an identity and unit them for his vision.

On re-examining of the Story So Far, you're right.

They are effectively humans, but that's not what Visari wants them to think. He wants them to think they are above humanity, they are "extra-human".

They're humans, but they're traitors. I can see the reasoning behind what they did, but they did not choose the best course of action.

They're that kind of "so good they're bad" species that make perfect enemies.

Traitors to what? They're the wrong party here! The war began when ISA renegaded on a trade agreement they sold to the colony of Alpha Centuari when they were cash strapped. It escalated to a one sided bloodbath and planetary bombardment of Vecta when Earth came in force and smashed the technologically inferior colony who had no standing military to speak of (they best they had was militia) and throw together ships that were not built for war. The Alpha Centuari colonist were outgunned and unjustly deprived of their land, true the recent action of Visari is nothing to write home about but calling the Helghast traitors is like calling the the British colonies in America traitors for their part in the War of Indepedence.

The only difference is that they won.

The action of Visari is certainly distasteful and wrong but he is by no mean the only 'bad guy' around, the ISA in fact, can be held accountable for far more death than Visari's war.

 




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mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
mibuokami said:
Kantor said:

That's different. That's evolution. Changes in skin colour and the like. Minor changes.

If an African, Mongolian or Aborigine was unable to breathe without a helmet, yes, I would call them a mutant.

You realize the only reason they have the helmet is as a symbol right? The Helghast helmet was orignally only worn by working class because the smelting process is toxic. There is a reason why the average life expectancy of the original colonist was less than 30. By the third generation, the Helghast were already adapting, the lunge that they were born with could withstand the toxic atmosphere far better than their the first generation colonist, again evolution.

Visari encourage people to wear the helmet because it act as a symbol of the struggle the Helghan went through to survive. They do not need to wear the helmet to breath, Visari needed the helmet to give the Helghast an identity and unit them for his vision.

On re-examining of the Story So Far, you're right.

They are effectively humans, but that's not what Visari wants them to think. He wants them to think they are above humanity, they are "extra-human".

They're humans, but they're traitors. I can see the reasoning behind what they did, but they did not choose the best course of action.

They're that kind of "so good they're bad" species that make perfect enemies.

Traitors to what? They're the wrong party here! The war began when ISA renegaded on a trade agreement they sold to the colony of Alpha Centuari when they were cash strapped. It escalated to a one sided bloodbath and planetary bombardment of Vecta when Earth came in force and smashed the technologically inferior colony who had no standing military to speak of (they best they had was militia) and throw together ships that were not built for war. The Alpha Centuari colonist were outgunned and unjustly deprived of their land, true the recent action of Visari is nothing to write home about but calling the Helghast traitors is like calling the the British colonies in America traitors for their part in the War of Indepedence.

The only difference is that they won.

The action of Visari is certainly distasteful and wrong but he is by no mean the only 'bad guy' around, the ISA in fact, can be held accountable for far more death than Visari's war.

 

Aha. Thus, we have another comparison.

The Nazi similarity is there certainly, but what about the Pacific Theatre? Japan and the USA? Fat Man and Little Boy killed far more Japanese than the Japanese killed Americans, and yet the Americans are seen as the good guys. Mostly because they won, partly because it supposedly avoided more deaths.

So yes, the ISA have caused more death than Visari, but they have done it for a better reason, it seems.

Just because Visari was pressured into being evil doesn't mean it's okay. If somebody is pressured into killing another human, does that mean they aren't guilty of murder?



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kantor said:
mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
mibuokami said:
Kantor said:

That's different. That's evolution. Changes in skin colour and the like. Minor changes.

If an African, Mongolian or Aborigine was unable to breathe without a helmet, yes, I would call them a mutant.

You realize the only reason they have the helmet is as a symbol right? The Helghast helmet was orignally only worn by working class because the smelting process is toxic. There is a reason why the average life expectancy of the original colonist was less than 30. By the third generation, the Helghast were already adapting, the lunge that they were born with could withstand the toxic atmosphere far better than their the first generation colonist, again evolution.

Visari encourage people to wear the helmet because it act as a symbol of the struggle the Helghan went through to survive. They do not need to wear the helmet to breath, Visari needed the helmet to give the Helghast an identity and unit them for his vision.

On re-examining of the Story So Far, you're right.

They are effectively humans, but that's not what Visari wants them to think. He wants them to think they are above humanity, they are "extra-human".

They're humans, but they're traitors. I can see the reasoning behind what they did, but they did not choose the best course of action.

They're that kind of "so good they're bad" species that make perfect enemies.

Traitors to what? They're the wrong party here! The war began when ISA renegaded on a trade agreement they sold to the colony of Alpha Centuari when they were cash strapped. It escalated to a one sided bloodbath and planetary bombardment of Vecta when Earth came in force and smashed the technologically inferior colony who had no standing military to speak of (they best they had was militia) and throw together ships that were not built for war. The Alpha Centuari colonist were outgunned and unjustly deprived of their land, true the recent action of Visari is nothing to write home about but calling the Helghast traitors is like calling the the British colonies in America traitors for their part in the War of Indepedence.

The only difference is that they won.

The action of Visari is certainly distasteful and wrong but he is by no mean the only 'bad guy' around, the ISA in fact, can be held accountable for far more death than Visari's war.

 

Aha. Thus, we have another comparison.

The Nazi similarity is there certainly, but what about the Pacific Theatre? Japan and the USA? Fat Man and Little Boy killed far more Japanese than the Japanese killed Americans, and yet the Americans are seen as the good guys. Mostly because they won, partly because it supposedly avoided more deaths.

So yes, the ISA have caused more death than Visari, but they have done it for a better reason, it seems.

Just because Visari was pressured into being evil doesn't mean it's okay. If somebody is pressured into killing another human, does that mean they aren't guilty of murder?

Better reason? A cash strapped earth sold the trading right to the citizen of Alpha Centauri for a huge sum of cash, then realize that the citizen they sold it to was getting a fat and hefty profit and decided to renegade on the agreement and invade the colony, smashed any resistence and bombard citizens when the colony refuse to surrdender is doing it for a better reason?

Bush can at least say that their might be WMD in Iraq when he started that war but this conflict began with pure naked greed. They then went ahead and colonize Vecta with loyal Earth citizens and treated the original colonist like third class citizens. When the violence between the extremist resistence force and invader finally got too much for the common citizen and force them into exile, it was the ISA that forced an embargo on the planet thus killing thousands through lack of medical aidand outright starvation.

The ISA of killzone feels more like the cliche and stereoptypical faceless heartless corporation whose mercenary ambitions and thirst for power come at the cost of human life.




mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
mibuokami said:

Traitors to what? They're the wrong party here! The war began when ISA renegaded on a trade agreement they sold to the colony of Alpha Centuari when they were cash strapped. It escalated to a one sided bloodbath and planetary bombardment of Vecta when Earth came in force and smashed the technologically inferior colony who had no standing military to speak of (they best they had was militia) and throw together ships that were not built for war. The Alpha Centuari colonist were outgunned and unjustly deprived of their land, true the recent action of Visari is nothing to write home about but calling the Helghast traitors is like calling the the British colonies in America traitors for their part in the War of Indepedence.

The only difference is that they won.

The action of Visari is certainly distasteful and wrong but he is by no mean the only 'bad guy' around, the ISA in fact, can be held accountable for far more death than Visari's war.

 

Aha. Thus, we have another comparison.

The Nazi similarity is there certainly, but what about the Pacific Theatre? Japan and the USA? Fat Man and Little Boy killed far more Japanese than the Japanese killed Americans, and yet the Americans are seen as the good guys. Mostly because they won, partly because it supposedly avoided more deaths.

So yes, the ISA have caused more death than Visari, but they have done it for a better reason, it seems.

Just because Visari was pressured into being evil doesn't mean it's okay. If somebody is pressured into killing another human, does that mean they aren't guilty of murder?

Better reason? A cash strapped earth sold the trading right to the citizen of Alpha Centauri for a huge sum of cash, then realize that the citizen they sold it to was getting a fat and hefty profit and decided to renegade on the agreement and invade the colony, smashed any resistence and bombard citizens when the colony refuse to surrdender is doing it for a better reason?

Bush can at least say that their might be WMD in Iraq when he started that war but this conflict began with pure naked greed. They then went ahead and colonize Vecta with loyal Earth citizens and treated the original colonist like third class citizens. When the violence between the extremist resistence force and invader finally got too much for the common citizen and force them into exile, it was the ISA that forced an embargo on the planet thus killing thousands through lack of medical aidand outright starvation.

The ISA of killzone feels more like the cliche and stereoptypical faceless heartless corporation whose mercenary ambitions and thirst for power come at the cost of human life.

Certainly, the ISA have their fair share of wrongdoings under their belt. I suppose you're right, in that they are evil, in a way. Or at least, they were.

The point is that whatever they've done has had rather awful consequences. They need to fix this. They created a monster through their evil, and leaving this monster will achieve nothing. It's too late to mend relationships and kiss and make up. The Helghast have to be defeated, it's the only way to fix things.

I suppose you do feel a little sorry for them, they've really done nothing wrong through fault of their own, but they've become uncontrollable and dangerous.

EDIT: The Iraq analogy is a good one. The ISA committed horrors with no valid reasoning, and now they're stuck. Many of them were against the invasion from the start. Many more are against it now. But the fact remains that there is no peaceful way to fix things.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kantor said:

Certainly, the ISA have their fair share of wrongdoings under their belt. I suppose you're right, in that they are evil, in a way. Or at least, they were.

The point is that whatever they've done has had rather awful consequences. They need to fix this. They created a monster through their evil, and leaving this monster will achieve nothing. It's too late to mend relationships and kiss and make up. The Helghast have to be defeated, it's the only way to fix things.

I suppose you do feel a little sorry for them, they've really done nothing wrong through fault of their own, but they've become uncontrollable and dangerous.

EDIT: The Iraq analogy is a good one. The ISA committed horrors with no valid reasoning, and now they're stuck. Many of them were against the invasion from the start. Many more are against it now. But the fact remains that there is no peaceful way to fix things.

Ah I think I can finally meet you half way with the last post, we are in agreement at last. :)

 




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mibuokami said:
Kantor said:

Certainly, the ISA have their fair share of wrongdoings under their belt. I suppose you're right, in that they are evil, in a way. Or at least, they were.

The point is that whatever they've done has had rather awful consequences. They need to fix this. They created a monster through their evil, and leaving this monster will achieve nothing. It's too late to mend relationships and kiss and make up. The Helghast have to be defeated, it's the only way to fix things.

I suppose you do feel a little sorry for them, they've really done nothing wrong through fault of their own, but they've become uncontrollable and dangerous.

EDIT: The Iraq analogy is a good one. The ISA committed horrors with no valid reasoning, and now they're stuck. Many of them were against the invasion from the start. Many more are against it now. But the fact remains that there is no peaceful way to fix things.

Ah I think I can finally meet you half way with the last post, we are in agreement at last. :)

 

But wait.

On restudying the lore, I don't think the Helghan were that innocent.

They were the ones who originally started to charge high taxes for ships to pass through Vekta. The ISA could not manage this, they did not have the money, nor the resources, to pay these taxes.

The Helghan refused to co-operate, and it was only after considering all other possibilities that the ISA attacked. It wasn't out of greed at all, it was out of necessity!

*reignites debate*



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

im starting to feel sorry for the helghans. to make it up to them ill play as a helghan in the mp



Initiating social expirement #928719281

Kantor said:

But wait.

On restudying the lore, I don't think the Helghan were that innocent.

They were the ones who originally started to charge high taxes for ships to pass through Vekta. The ISA could not manage this, they did not have the money, nor the resources, to pay these taxes.

The Helghan refused to co-operate, and it was only after considering all other possibilities that the ISA attacked. It wasn't out of greed at all, it was out of necessity!

*reignites debate*

Quote time!

Platinum Age (2156-2190):

The Helghan system is a 'Hub' system that connects Earth to her Colonies - every ship MUST travel through Helghan to get anywhere. The Helghan Administration begins to charge each ship for the privilege - allegedly a fee for Traffic Control, Customs, Search and Rescue and other such services, it is actually a thinly disguised tariff upon all trade in Space. Helghan based ships are granted a 'Residence Permit' that frees them from some charges, encouraging some shipping companies to relocate.

No where was it mention that this caused severe economic strife to the UCN administration, the vast majoritive of traffic through space would be commercial in nature as the backbone of civilisation is and always will be trade. The bolded text especially support the conclusion that most profit was made from commercial traffic which is NOT UCN related.

Tensions (2198):

The UCN grows concerned at the increasing domination that Helghan is exerting over star travel and space trade - traditionally under UCN control. *Fear is thy enemy* They also become frustrated that the Helghan are creating vast wealth off the backs of colonial endeavors that the UCN itself has underwritten. *Jealousy is thy sin* It levies stricter controls and tariffs on all space traffic and taxes the colonies more heavily than ever before - using the money to expand the UCA, the UCA Navy receiving the bulk of the new budget. For the first time the UCA Navy develops large scale troop transports and the new Heavy Cruisers - warships clearly designed principally to smash the ISA fleets of the outer colonies and invade them by force.

As part of these new regulations several privileges granted to the Helghan Administration as part of the Helghan/Vektan Purchase are rescinded - specifically the right to a large home fleet and tariffs on shipping. *Thy convet the wealth of they neighbour*The Helghan Administration refuses, but does agree to high-level talks on a compromise solution. Back home, however, the wealthy people of Vekta and the powerful companies in orbit around Helghan pressure the Helghan Administration not to budge on the issues of tariffs or self-defense.

So lets summerize:
UCN fear the growing power of the biggest colony world/system and made preperation for war, despite the later party making no indication of aggression

UCN is jealous that an enterprising party is making profit despite their monopoly; they sold the right to tariff in ONE SYSTEM after negotiation in good faith but renegaded on the deal once it became obvious that (to use an anology) 'the land they sold had gold on it'.

The trade tariff might not even effect UCN traffic at all as UCN is still a military entity and retain control of all space traffic and tariff overall, but even if they do, they are NOT costing the UCN an arm and a leg, the only thing they are doing is making the UCN look like idiots for selling a lucratic money maker without fully realizing what they are selling.

Caveat Emptor, or in this case, let the seller beware, they had no legal right to revoke the agreement, the UCN were simply acting as bully, flexing its muscle when the target refuse to bent over and take it. They were 100% in the wrong and because they had the neccessary force, got away with it.

Quod erat faciendum




terislb said:

the isa are the "good guys" they were attacked first so now they are going to retaliate .... why the hellgast were driven from vecta into exile was so far never explained in the first place

 

Actually, yes it is. The Killzone website has all the back story of what happened. 

Here is all the back story somebody extracted and placed in one long post.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone2&thread.id=46459



IllegalPaladin said:
terislb said:

the isa are the "good guys" they were attacked first so now they are going to retaliate .... why the hellgast were driven from vecta into exile was so far never explained in the first place

 

Actually, yes it is. The Killzone website has all the back story of what happened. 

Here is all the back story somebody extracted and placed in one long post.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone2&thread.id=46459

just read it all.. my bad ... but it should have been avaiable in the games . (

guess that whole backstory renders the questions why anyone would symphatise with the helghast instead of the isa buggers pretty much pointless.. 

i wonder if that concept had been established when killzone 1 was in production... the isa being the über baddies i mean...  i thought they were promoted as the wholesome "amercian" liberators ...and they turn out to be greedy opressive buggers

is that supposed to be some clever allegory on todays world politics ?

 i wonder how  the plot of kz 2 is going to do about that  "oh noes you have stolen the nukes that we secretly build to wipe you out of the planet that you invaded which we stole from you in the first place  and now you want to use them against us, so you are the baddies again now ..THE END" otherwise i would feel really ..uncomfortable to play isa again