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Forums - Sony Discussion - Killzone- bad guys have more appeal!?!

Phobos said:
off topic:
@SamuelRSmith:

OK, I understand, I would agree with this, also with your comment on the Dictation of Versailler. No it was not a treaty, because the german representatives were forced to say "Yes, we agree" by the allies or british battleships would continue the food-blockade.But thats something you can't read in a (at least german) schoolbook- always the winner writes the history.

on topic:
@Carl2291
That would be very pollitical incorrect, wouldn't it? That would mean a lot of gamers would like to play as Helgast and not as the actual protagonist?

Yes, that's what the online is for.

The campaign, however, is different. You get to play as the invaders, and shooting humans in a campaign is pathetic (except for Call of Duty, that owns) IMO. Especially if you are an alien yourself.

People don't want to be the Helghast (in the campaign at least) because then they wouldn't get to shoot the Helghast.

 



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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Kantor said:
Phobos said:
off topic:
@SamuelRSmith:

OK, I understand, I would agree with this, also with your comment on the Dictation of Versailler. No it was not a treaty, because the german representatives were forced to say "Yes, we agree" by the allies or british battleships would continue the food-blockade.But thats something you can't read in a (at least german) schoolbook- always the winner writes the history.

on topic:
@Carl2291
That would be very pollitical incorrect, wouldn't it? That would mean a lot of gamers would like to play as Helgast and not as the actual protagonist?

Yes, that's what the online is for.

The campaign, however, is different. You get to play as the invaders, and shooting humans in a campaign is pathetic (except for Call of Duty, that owns) IMO. Especially if you are an alien yourself.

People don't want to be the Helghast (in the campaign at least) because then they wouldn't get to shoot the Helghast.

 

Remove the faceless mask and find yourself looking into the face of a brother.

The fact that the Helghast is as much alien as the native of Vecta seems to escape many people. Remember, that the Helghast started out as colonist from Earth just like the ISA.

With regards to the people wanting to be the Helghast or not... all you really need to do is flesh out the history of Helghan - ISA relationship, the depravity and brutality that has been done to this people, the one side war that ISA instigated (which started as a trade dispute over a renegade promise on the ISA part), the planetary bombardment, the inhospitable condition they suffered without medical aid, food stuff and the appalling living condition that would make humanitarians cringe in horror...

It is really piss easy to make people sympthise with the Helghast instead of the ISA. Remember also that the invasion of Helghast is NOT sanctioned by the UCA and is the ISA’s illegal attempt to settle their vendetta with the Helghast.

There is ALWAYS another side to any story and for the universe of Killzone 2; the step to humanize the Helghast is so easy that even some shitty wannabe writer from fanfiction.net could spin a credible yarn.

 




mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
Phobos said:
off topic:
@SamuelRSmith:

OK, I understand, I would agree with this, also with your comment on the Dictation of Versailler. No it was not a treaty, because the german representatives were forced to say "Yes, we agree" by the allies or british battleships would continue the food-blockade.But thats something you can't read in a (at least german) schoolbook- always the winner writes the history.

on topic:
@Carl2291
That would be very pollitical incorrect, wouldn't it? That would mean a lot of gamers would like to play as Helgast and not as the actual protagonist?

Yes, that's what the online is for.

The campaign, however, is different. You get to play as the invaders, and shooting humans in a campaign is pathetic (except for Call of Duty, that owns) IMO. Especially if you are an alien yourself.

People don't want to be the Helghast (in the campaign at least) because then they wouldn't get to shoot the Helghast.

 

Remove the faceless mask and find yourself looking into the face of a brother.

The fact that the Helghast is as much alien as the native of Vecta seems to escape many people. Remember, that the Helghast started out as colonist from Earth just like the ISA.

With regards to the people wanting to be the Helghast or not... all you really need to do is flesh out the history of Helghan - ISA relationship, the depravity and brutality that has been done to this people, the one side war that ISA instigated (which started as a trade dispute over a renegade promise on the ISA part), the planetary bombardment, the inhospitable condition they suffered without medical aid, food stuff and the appalling living condition that would make humanitarians cringe in horror...

It is really piss easy to make people sympthise with the Helghast instead of the ISA. Remember also that the invasion of Helghast is NOT sanctioned by the UCA and is the ISA’s illegal attempt to settle their vendetta with the Helghast.

There is ALWAYS another side to any story and for the universe of Killzone 2; the step to humanize the Helghast is so easy that even some shitty wannabe writer from fanfiction.net could spin a credible yarn.

 

I suppose technically the Helghast are human. But they are mutated deformed. It's kind of like Human vs. Chimera in R2, except not quite so extreme; the Helghast still speak human language and have human intelligence.

Also, remove the faceless mask, you'll get something very unpleasant, I would imagine.

It's easy to sympathise with the Helghast, but not when you're shooting them, and besides, enemies with orange eyes are always good.

The Helghast have this evil look that's perfect for an enemy.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kantor said:
mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
Phobos said:
off topic:
@SamuelRSmith:

OK, I understand, I would agree with this, also with your comment on the Dictation of Versailler. No it was not a treaty, because the german representatives were forced to say "Yes, we agree" by the allies or british battleships would continue the food-blockade.But thats something you can't read in a (at least german) schoolbook- always the winner writes the history.

on topic:
@Carl2291
That would be very pollitical incorrect, wouldn't it? That would mean a lot of gamers would like to play as Helgast and not as the actual protagonist?

Yes, that's what the online is for.

The campaign, however, is different. You get to play as the invaders, and shooting humans in a campaign is pathetic (except for Call of Duty, that owns) IMO. Especially if you are an alien yourself.

People don't want to be the Helghast (in the campaign at least) because then they wouldn't get to shoot the Helghast.

 

Remove the faceless mask and find yourself looking into the face of a brother.

The fact that the Helghast is as much alien as the native of Vecta seems to escape many people. Remember, that the Helghast started out as colonist from Earth just like the ISA.

With regards to the people wanting to be the Helghast or not... all you really need to do is flesh out the history of Helghan - ISA relationship, the depravity and brutality that has been done to this people, the one side war that ISA instigated (which started as a trade dispute over a renegade promise on the ISA part), the planetary bombardment, the inhospitable condition they suffered without medical aid, food stuff and the appalling living condition that would make humanitarians cringe in horror...

It is really piss easy to make people sympthise with the Helghast instead of the ISA. Remember also that the invasion of Helghast is NOT sanctioned by the UCA and is the ISA’s illegal attempt to settle their vendetta with the Helghast.

There is ALWAYS another side to any story and for the universe of Killzone 2; the step to humanize the Helghast is so easy that even some shitty wannabe writer from fanfiction.net could spin a credible yarn.

 

I suppose technically the Helghast are human. But they are mutated deformed. It's kind of like Human vs. Chimera in R2, except not quite so extreme; the Helghast still speak human language and have human intelligence.

Also, remove the faceless mask, you'll get something very unpleasant, I would imagine.

It's easy to sympathise with the Helghast, but not when you're shooting them, and besides, enemies with orange eyes are always good.

The Helghast have this evil look that's perfect for an enemy.

The look of the Helghast is stereotype evil, this I acknowledge, but mutants? The helghan are a production of their tough environment and contain all the anatomy to define themselves as human. Do you consider an African a mutant? How about a Mongolian or an Australian Aborigines? If a tribe of human decided to live their complete life in a cave would you consider them mutants for being albino? Perhaps it can be classify as mutations, I prefer to call it evolution.

And yes, I like the Helghast a lot, I would pay money to play a Helghast campaign were they claim back Vecta and boot the ISA back to where they come. :P

 




mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
mibuokami said:
Kantor said:
Phobos said:
off topic:
@SamuelRSmith:

OK, I understand, I would agree with this, also with your comment on the Dictation of Versailler. No it was not a treaty, because the german representatives were forced to say "Yes, we agree" by the allies or british battleships would continue the food-blockade.But thats something you can't read in a (at least german) schoolbook- always the winner writes the history.

on topic:
@Carl2291
That would be very pollitical incorrect, wouldn't it? That would mean a lot of gamers would like to play as Helgast and not as the actual protagonist?

Yes, that's what the online is for.

The campaign, however, is different. You get to play as the invaders, and shooting humans in a campaign is pathetic (except for Call of Duty, that owns) IMO. Especially if you are an alien yourself.

People don't want to be the Helghast (in the campaign at least) because then they wouldn't get to shoot the Helghast.

 

Remove the faceless mask and find yourself looking into the face of a brother.

The fact that the Helghast is as much alien as the native of Vecta seems to escape many people. Remember, that the Helghast started out as colonist from Earth just like the ISA.

With regards to the people wanting to be the Helghast or not... all you really need to do is flesh out the history of Helghan - ISA relationship, the depravity and brutality that has been done to this people, the one side war that ISA instigated (which started as a trade dispute over a renegade promise on the ISA part), the planetary bombardment, the inhospitable condition they suffered without medical aid, food stuff and the appalling living condition that would make humanitarians cringe in horror...

It is really piss easy to make people sympthise with the Helghast instead of the ISA. Remember also that the invasion of Helghast is NOT sanctioned by the UCA and is the ISA’s illegal attempt to settle their vendetta with the Helghast.

There is ALWAYS another side to any story and for the universe of Killzone 2; the step to humanize the Helghast is so easy that even some shitty wannabe writer from fanfiction.net could spin a credible yarn.

 

I suppose technically the Helghast are human. But they are mutated deformed. It's kind of like Human vs. Chimera in R2, except not quite so extreme; the Helghast still speak human language and have human intelligence.

Also, remove the faceless mask, you'll get something very unpleasant, I would imagine.

It's easy to sympathise with the Helghast, but not when you're shooting them, and besides, enemies with orange eyes are always good.

The Helghast have this evil look that's perfect for an enemy.

The look of the Helghast is stereotype evil, this I acknowledge, but mutants? The helghan are a production of their tough environment and contain all the anatomy to define themselves as human. Do you consider an African a mutant? How about a Mongolian or an Australian Aborigines? If a tribe of human decided to live their complete life in a cave would you consider them mutants for being albino? Perhaps it can be classify as mutations, I prefer to call it evolution.

And yes, I like the Helghast a lot, I would pay money to play a Helghast campaign were they claim back Vecta and boot the ISA back to where they come. :P

 

That's different. That's evolution. Changes in skin colour and the like. Minor changes.

If an African, Mongolian or Aborigine was unable to breathe without a helmet, yes, I would call them a mutant.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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Kantor said:

That's different. That's evolution. Changes in skin colour and the like. Minor changes.

If an African, Mongolian or Aborigine was unable to breathe without a helmet, yes, I would call them a mutant.

You realize the only reason they have the helmet is as a symbol right? The Helghast helmet was orignally only worn by working class because the smelting process is toxic. There is a reason why the average life expectancy of the original colonist was less than 30. By the third generation, the Helghast were already adapting, the lunge that they were born with could withstand the toxic atmosphere far better than their the first generation colonist, again evolution.

Visari encourage people to wear the helmet because it act as a symbol of the struggle the Helghan went through to survive. They do not need to wear the helmet to breath, Visari needed the helmet to give the Helghast an identity and unit them for his vision.




Pristine20 said:
SamuelRSmith said:

When the game designers created the Killzone universe, they looked at their planet and it's history for inspiration.

Germany felt as though it was under constant attack from the West before WWII, and they deeply resented the Treaty of Versailles. The way that Germany felt could be mirrored by the Helghast and there resentment toward other human colonies due to the way that they were being treated.

Germany got hit hard by the economic depression, it was also destyoed by WWI, other events such as the invasion of the Ruhr, hyperinflation, political uprisings from across the spectrum, the country was falling apart, and living standards were dropping fast. Helghan isn't exactly the nicest planet in the galaxy to live in.

Visari shows many parallels to Hitler in the way he gives speeches, his aims, and his way of leading. The speechs at the start of Killzone and Killzone 2 shows that the used similar styles of propaganda to Hitler.

The way the Helghast army present themselves is also incredibly similar to the way the German army did so. The German army often wore superlative uniforms and was overly-cautious about presentation and showing order.

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with your conclusion about the inspirations for Killzone.

Why, then does everybody have Helghast avatars and signatures? Well, because they look so damned awesome, is why.

^this. great post man

 

this.

I would also add that, in my opinion, there is always a sort of fascination for the bad guys, always.

Same go for Hitler or the Hellgast.

"war is cool" until you lost someone of your family ... PAN PAN PAN, you are dead !!!



Time to Work !

ok i dont mean to be a part of all that discussion.. but.. what is a mutant..what is mutation? there are good and bad mutations , i suggest you read the article in wikipedia its really interesting ..for example the fact that 8000 years ago people already had domesticated cows but could not digest their milk.. only after a mutation (most) people became tolerant to lactose

there is a difference between the mutation in the scientific way.. and ..growing a third eye and 3 arms

its hard to say if its mutation or "adaption" like people from regions like nepal that lies very high and the air pressure is different than on sea level they can travel the mountains without breathing problems while tourists sometimes need oxygen masks .what about africans whose hair is very thick and their skin dark to endure the burning sun... is that mutation or adaption?

if you hyphotetically speaking live on a planet where its necessary to wear a breathing mask and googles your eyes and lungs will devolve after a while.. its like a person who has been forced to stay in bed for a long while he will have problems trying to walk again without training



mibuokami said:
Kantor said:

That's different. That's evolution. Changes in skin colour and the like. Minor changes.

If an African, Mongolian or Aborigine was unable to breathe without a helmet, yes, I would call them a mutant.

You realize the only reason they have the helmet is as a symbol right? The Helghast helmet was orignally only worn by working class because the smelting process is toxic. There is a reason why the average life expectancy of the original colonist was less than 30. By the third generation, the Helghast were already adapting, the lunge that they were born with could withstand the toxic atmosphere far better than their the first generation colonist, again evolution.

Visari encourage people to wear the helmet because it act as a symbol of the struggle the Helghan went through to survive. They do not need to wear the helmet to breath, Visari needed the helmet to give the Helghast an identity and unit them for his vision.

On re-examining of the Story So Far, you're right.

They are effectively humans, but that's not what Visari wants them to think. He wants them to think they are above humanity, they are "extra-human".

They're humans, but they're traitors. I can see the reasoning behind what they did, but they did not choose the best course of action.

They're that kind of "so good they're bad" species that make perfect enemies.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

ok now away with the pseudo scientifical bullshit.. and on to the pseudo philosophical bullshit

i like the hellghast because ..the uniforms and facemasks look cool ,obviously

well they are apparently part of a facist ,repressive government and like to go to war and dominate others

the isa are the "good guys" they were attacked first so now they are going to retaliate .... why the hellgast were driven from vecta into exile was so far never explained in the first place

the whole isa thing seems so ..preachy "oh we are the good guys ,were though and full of witty one liners and were going to liberate you"

so you have the stereotypical american war super hero vs nazis in space

since im sick and tired of the glorified captain america like hero i symphatise with the helghast they seem to be the more honest and realistic display of humanity ..and why they are so evil has never been explained its always boils down to colonel radec and scolar visary being the baddies ,the concept feels a little unfinished. i mean it works with ww2 shooters because we know that the third reich wasnt the benefactor of humanity ... but the hellghast tried to take back their apparently once own planet and now are defending themselves..no ethnical cleansings or aspirations to enslave all others