One of the biggest problems with arguing whether videogames are art is that most people do not know or understand what art is. In a very vague and general sense art is a form of indirectly communicating (typically complicated) information about a (often taboo) subject.

It´s true other games also "force" you to use your brain, but that´s something different.

Brain Training only helps if you use special kind of puzzles/ challenges.

Example: You can think about the deepest mysteries of our universe 3 hours a day, but your brain will still get "old". Solving easy math questions like 7x5, 4x6, etc. do help to keep your brain working properly.

this is long to explain, but believe me: Brain Training helps. Sudoku for example doesn´t help. Ask Ryuuta Kawashima   (for all who didn´t know: Yes he really exists and he is a well kown...well whatever the englsh word for it is )

You've looked up the wrong information -- the "game player" includes casual gamers that play Bejewled online, or Tetris on a game boy, and these significantly bump the average. In fact, playing "Solitaire" that comes packed with your PC every now and then makes you a gamer, according to the rules of the ESA. Look up the average console gamer, and you will find the average age is 23 as of 2004. This is actually even worse than your initial conclusion: it suggests that console gamers are PARTICULARLY lagging behind in maturity compared to all gamers in general (if anyone can find a link to this, I'd appreciate it, as the data is 3 years old).

Your point about adults not playing these games growing up is valid, to an extent: it would be a perfect explanation if adults weren't playing SOME games. Let's just assume that your explanation is valid. Then how do you explain why they play games such as "The Sims," "Brain Age" and "Civilization" in much greater numbers than others? This suggests that the problem isn't that the older people aren't willing to play games at all; they're just not willing to play games about blowing up space aliens.

It also doesn't explain why girls tend to play those types of games less. If this were simply a matter of older people not "getting it," then why are young girls not "getting it" either? And why are they playing games like Cooking Mama and The Sims instead of God of War? There are really two explanations, then:

1) Young males "get it," and are the only ones to appreciate this new, profound art. Adults and women are willing to play other titles, such as "The Sims," but aren't willing to engage in the deep stuff.

2) It's not a profound art. It's just a playground for young males, and like all playgrounds for young males, young women and adults really aren't very interested.

Most adults I know think that games are just about jumping around to collect coins and avoid falling into holes. It seems to me that most people who didn't grow up with gaming look down on video games and just aren't willing to try them. It's their loss I suppose. My mother is an example. I've had no luck convincing her that games can sometimes have storylines that are as interesting as all these novels she reads or films that she watches. She just thinks that only children and geeks play games. 

People who don't play games don't realise that there are many other genres besides from shooters, racers, sports games or those aimed at kids. Me and my best friend persuaded her dad to play FFX and now he loves Squeenix RPGs. He doesn't game often but he's completed KH 1 & 2, FFX, X-2 and is currently playing XII. He always thought gaming was naff until he got bullied into playing a decent game. It's unfortunate that there are few people his age who are willing to give it a try. 

I'm not like all these other women you mention in that I don't see the appeal in The Sims or Cooking Mama, but I love God of War. Kratos is awesome. Gaming isn't just a playground for young males. Lots of young women are becoming serious gamers, half of my female friends won't stop obsessing over Dante. Lol. Jin is far more beautiful than him. Anyway, I for one think that games can be art. I love the ancient Greek setting in God of War, the artstyle in this game is amazing. It also has lots of ponies in it.

It sure does have to stop. Three pages of speculation from both sides. Ridiculous, considering neither side is convincing the other.

 I like arguments that don't go anywhere. There're the best kind, they never end! Well, not until everyone has repeated the same points (but phrased in a slightly different way) about five or so times.

 Ummm, as far as man's interests go, violence ranks FAR below sex during any age...

The core of my frustration comes from my inability to prove or disprove the validity of great art. I feel, with some degree of certainty, that no serious artistic expert would give much credence to the artistic value of a game like Gears of War on any level but a purely visual one: and even there, it's very young and it's very male. It's really very similar to Pokemon. Can you PROVE that Pokemon isn't great art? No, you can't, even if a large portion of us can agree that it isn't. 

I feel the same about God of War, and I'm patently aware of the complete inability to PROVE it. It's very frustrating to me. All I can give is tangential evidence, and I've given every ounce of it I can muster. 

Some pokemon look really nice, like Milotic:

Although I don't consider pokemon to be great art, it is still art.

Most pokeman have really crap designs anyway.

I quite like the art in God of War, but then I've always had an interest in mythology. I think the creatures look cool and I also like the architecture in the game.  

Actually, yes it is still an outlet of frustration, the fact you even acknowledge it as bashing by responding to it as such shows this to be true. And even if frustration is not the case for you there is no arguing the incessant redundacy of such attacks on the Wii and/or Casual gamers under the premise of them erroding gaming.

Just because I have my own reservations about the future of lifestyle gaming does not mean I can't see the true nature of why many attack casual gaming. Don't tell me you're naive enough to think that having reservations and outright attacking something are one in the same or exclude one from taking notice of the other. Casual Gaming was never a matter worth mentioning by the self proclaimed "Hardcore" gamers when it was in thier favor as with the PS1 and PS2 sales, but now that its against what they want gaming to be they attack it, so don't cry Nintendo Bias on me or anyone else. The door swings both ways. The fact that you even point out my own reservations should only further illustrate the hypocrisy of your attempt to portray me as someone who praises them, which I fail to see myself doing anywhere in this forum.

Sales don't determine quality, true, but nothing else objectively does either. Quality is a subjective measure in this context, its ultimately a matter of personal perspective and philosophy. It's also a measure almost exclusively introduced into these debates by Sony fans, not Nintendo fans. Sales determine what the consumer wants. Sales determine what console succeeds. And in this race, that's all that matters and that's why Sony fans are upset. If Quality was the only issue here then I'm sure that many Sony fans would be content to just ignore the Wii and its games. But Quality isn't the issue, its just an excuse after the fact to justify one person's opinion over another's.

In the end, sales are what matter whether we like it or not. Sales are what decide the winner. Logically, if your console can't have the sales, you're naturally going to try and brag up the next most important aspect that you've convinced yourself your console excels in. And the weapons of choice for Sony Fans everywhere are the illusive ideologies of "Quality" and "Hardcore Gaming", both self proclaimed, both subjective ideals, both excuses after the fact.